½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

there are new laws regarding rentals.. maybe should say the laws are being beefed up or more strongly enforced ..so your sister is dealing with someone that seems to be following the rules and regulations.. so i think that its a good pointer.. although should she not understand ½ûÂþÌìÌà then it would be not legal to enforce a contract without it being in a language she does understand.. i guess best to check the dates carefully and find someone to look at itÌý for penalty clauses and return of deposits... sorry am assuming she does not read ½ûÂþÌìÌà ..ÌýÌý should not presume this ... but Italy is changing slowly.. and this is just another of those attempts to regulate income derived from renting property .. i think also its a preperation for the soon to come federal changes.. i know its got put back once more but it is coming.. as is the new tax on tourists .. this will mean a property owner who rents or a hotel will have to charge a tax per personÌý for each night..Ìý which then goes to the comune via your tax decleration form... there are exemptions for certain accomodation but as i dont rent any property out i have not gone into detail federal changes i have followed quite closely and it seems that beyond the normal debate about it being an imposed northern legislation to cut the costs of supporting the southern regions.. which in itself is not so simple as its supported by many in the south too... anyway what it isÌý aimed at doing in an income sense is making local comunes more aware of collecting local tax as the belief is that a comune that is more dependant on its own revenue gathered locally will be more careful over who is earning what and if its declared.. in fact its a very simple idea that should provide comunes with a wealth of local income that they have never bothered or even been empowered to have access to..Ìý there is to be a tie up so that comunes who know all of us will be able to see tax declerations and therefore know for sure if those of us driving around in smart new cars or having visitors staying all the time will obviously look strangely at a zero income decleration and for the first time local spending is going to have to be accounted for with the regions ,provinces and comunes having to submit real budgets and show costs so that citizens can see whats being spent where and be able to elect people on merit of service and budgetÌý a long way off subject.. but its a new Italy thats arriving i believe and one that will be much more aware and accountable .. to me its a good move...Ìý

well i find it refreshing to see someone start a debate ignoring all principle of political correctness.. and have not found any of the views expressed at all offensive.. maybe its the fact that living here one gets used to arguements that are a bit stronger and words that are not quite so nice.. watching debates on ½ûÂþÌìÌà TV sometimes makes my head hurt as shouting insults across studios and ten people speaking at the same time seems to be the norm.. i belive a lot of problems for people is the desire to escape a life that has become maybe a bit humdrum.. to have an adventure ... and i think that is good .. i know people that to make a journey of any distance in a vehicle take sandwiches , bottles of drinks, several maps and will not leave home without a hotel booked..Ìý a visit to the garage for a service.. check tire pressures.. all admirable and most probably if they choose to move they have everything planned and investigated to the extreme and most probably at the end of the research they will decide its not really for them.. or they will move and be very smug about their wise decision.. others and i might well incude myself amongst them get into their car with a bag of clothes and leave home... the journey is an adventure that really does not nescitate in my mind knowing where you are going to sleep the night.. or plan on when you are going to get hungry or tired.. you adapt to the journey.. breakdowns will happen anyway despite having an oil changeÌý if they are meant to be.. and i think if you have that slightly less strauctured approach accepting what life throws up you manage very well and maybe you will move on at some stage but i doubt you will ever move back..Ìý because people like that seem to be able to fit in anywhere.. so moving again is not a defeat just another adventure.. Ìý what seems to me real about the orignal post is the number of threads here on how to avoid ½ûÂþÌìÌà rules.. car threads generall throw up views which seem to suggest people would rather be criminals than accept how things are supposed to be here..ÌýÌý the problems many have had with building works and the level of anger that generates... maybe it is a system that is old fashioned and costly but its the ½ûÂþÌìÌà system that is applied to all people here unless theyhave friends that will assist.. but there again that is the ½ûÂþÌìÌà system and if you settle here and get involved with your neighbors its suprisingly easy to meet people that will help in a positive manner and allow you to fit in and do your own thing in the way most ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs seem to do... the rules aare there and are applied its knowing which ones everybody ignores or manages a way around.. Ìý i do not have strong feelings against ex pat type sheep behaviour.. it just doesnt seem the most essential worry of life.. and if they are happy fine... as long as i am not involved.. which by mistake can happen.. as i am not anti meeting them but you soon find that there are some you are happy to see and others that you spend time avoiding...Ìý in general the ones you are happy to see have a busy life anyway and you find you hardly ever meet up.. Ìý Ìý i dont know that there is any right way to do things we all have our own choices to make..Ìý what is maybe difficult is being able to accept others without rancour.. maybe i am getting older but i really do not get that bothered by it all and maybe thats cause i am completely outside any ex pat community ... and am happy that way much as they most probably are not to have anything much to do with me.. Ìý if i have any anger its almost always directed to people that live here and work here without paying tax.... rentals that are undeclared, house sellers that call themselves estate agents , people that are quite happy to move here and knock the whole ½ûÂþÌìÌà system it seems whilst behaving like the benefit fraudsters they most probably knocked completely when in the UK... now living and earning here whilst not paying any of the dues we all have to pay if we earn anything...Ìý how does that make an ½ûÂþÌìÌà feel that pays a good 50 % into the state in local and national taxs, health care ..road tax..etc etc.. Ìý thats to my mind the worse part of the ex pat syetm here.. the criticisms whilst roobing the place blind..justified because they dont know the rules..or they paid enough when they worked in the UK or just thats its not real work they only help other english..Ìý its a strange world but i am quite happy with the debate that was started and although i have mellowed i apreciate the use of stronger terms to allow maybe a less than polite discusion.. and no i dont spell check either..or punctuate..

i do have some symapthy for your remarks.. and i cannot be anything other than honest about the fact that i do complain about the ½ûÂþÌìÌà system of corruption and inefficiency in the sense of state .. not private enterprise in general.. i am happy to wait in shops and agree about the social benefits of queues... however i am also more than happy to agree with almost every italian that does not work for the state.. a bit less than half the population who think its all stinks.. and in order to live here you pretty well have to complain once a week or at least agree every day with some neighbour or associate who is ½ûÂþÌìÌà over the horrors of it all...Ìý if the ½ûÂþÌìÌà were happy with it as you seem to be they would not want change.. however taking a weeks unpaid leave from work over a year to fill in forms and vist various state institutionsÌý means they loose a great deal of money in a country where salaries are low anyway.. and taxs are very high.. average is 40 + % when you add in all the bits.. for even the lowest paid..Ìý and then they have to pay lots of other things too.. like tickets for hosp[ital visits.. if you have children for dental work.. for spectacles...Ìý school books.. even it seems enrolling a child in a school costs 100 euro a year..for each new class... having a child even.. means a specialist doctor that you have to pay for including all tests .. so you might well be fine looking at it all via the sort of visitor mentality.. or maybe you have a foreign pension thats inflation linked.. but for ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs at least its a common thing to complain and i really see no difference in the fact that i choose to live here being something that inhibits my choice to complain against stupidity and corruption..Ìý however i do it in sympathy with my friends here.. and rarely if ever would i complain about the choice of supemarkets or restaurants.. as that i agree makes a nonsence of anyones choice to experience a different life if every sentence compares here to home or each day you have a longing for something that you miss form home.. however the world now is a small place so if someone likes to sit in their house ordering stuff via the internet and basically living an insular life.. maybe happy with their choice becaus of weather then that to me is their right.. thankfully with live in europe where we all have rights .. and the most important is the right to express our views... remember this place when every word was screened and things deleted as control freaks who did not even seem to have basic english took over.. almost killed the place.. now it seems to be a bit more free for discusion.. thank fully.. so i accpet your views and its sad to reflect that many people do leave and go back "home" .. but i would rather have those that try and give up than those that arrive here and form little areas of englishness.. and can survive living in a foreign land because they have isolated themselves from it..Ìý and only switching into ½ûÂþÌìÌà to try and impress visiting friends or when in the presence of other foreigners to mention Roma instead of rome of Firenze instead of Florence .. good start to a thread.. its bound to promote some good discusion.. so thanks for that at least

i have seen people in conad/leclerc get extra when using cards in the supermarket...Ìý i think even in lidls too.. not sure if they are credit cards or normal bank cards ...Ìý anyway it seems quite normal here.. as is the use of cards now.. its suprising how quickly its all changed as a few years back Italy was almost all cash..ÌýÌý so maybe its to do with the leclerc side of conad ... and it being non italian..Ìý i would presume also that it might well be more common central north... as usual it seems there is no easy answer to anything in a national sense...Ìý suggest you try your own local supermarkets and see..

its worth making the effort.. as someone has already said the mafia, or mafia controlled companies are the most prevalent people operating in this sector and the reasons are many,its pretty well a no brainer for those with capital as the banks are falling over themselves to provide loans on this at good rates as they are pretty well guaranteed via the state.. so yes its a good way of cleaning up money and its dubious origins.. whats more disturbing to my mind are the long term plans on this.... many areas are protected because they are greenfield and the fact that you can now stick huge windmills or large amounts of panels pretty well anywhereÌý is not the main problem, the long term plan is that many planning applications get turned down for other developments due to the fact an area is unpsolied or of outstanding natural beauty..Ìý so they are considered pretty safe from development....Ìý but seed these areas with energy farms then a few years down the road you will find that planning applications get put in for large developments that cannot be objected to on grounds of no previous development or outstanding natural beauty... if in doubt about this look along almost any ½ûÂþÌìÌà motorway and you will see that its almost a given that within a few years of it being built in whatever position it will have expanded from the initial few lanes to a wide swathe of industrial and/or residential development.. thats where the real money is and its why the green companies are being used in this way.. along with the development of the green energy there are other associated companies buying up land all around thes developments ready for the day when they will start putting in applications for other construction work... and this is where the real money is to be made.. mafia is more involved in construction and waste and its the basis of their organistaion in Italy as its a much more lucrative option than drugs etc.. and allows a pretty easy way to turn over large amounts of cash and show profits to explain away income..Ìý its happening already in sicily and sardinia.. and its a system without investment risk in these days where the only ones with deep enough pockets to keep buying up land and leaving it idle for a few years are the organised criminals... Ìý so stopping it is important for all of our futures .. but the main problem is that the politicians especially those that are local take a term of office to line their own pockets.. and these opportunities will be rare for them to exploit.. in many of the remote areas so they will be playing innocent when giving permisons for green energy and denying any further plans are in the pipeline.. a few years down the road though i bet they own a lot of the land surrounding these projects and they will be selling it off for development.. its the system here.. take a seemingly good idea and adapt it to the endemic corruption...Ìý

i think that many problems here are caused by casual approaches to how a building need to be restored and i admire the fact that someone is taking their own individual approach to how things should be done in their mind.. of course am about to add an "however" i think its limited to think that all problems can be resolved by reverting to older solutions there are many and varied and much cheaper solutions available using modern methods and i believe a carefully worked out project using both is maybe the best way and will obviously be lighter on your pocket if employing people as craftsmen and using reclaimed materials is often a lot more expensive... Abruzzo has a good example of restoration carried out to a very high degree of original or artisan labor in S. stefano in the province of L'Aquila .. a sort of place held up as a shining example of how places should be restored.. however two things to note here in my opinion... they used steel work throughout the restored buildings to ensure they manage to comply with seismic regulations in an area of class 1 risk...and then covered it all up with reclaimed or new hand made materials.. Ìýotherwise they would have just crumbled in the earthquake.. so behind the facade their is a very strong well designed system that pulls the whole place together.. which is the system generally used in most property but its cheaper to use enforced concrete so that the option most people go for.. then covering that up or filling in the skeleton with a more pleasing finish.. if a new build... however whatever is attempted here does need some sort of rigid and strong system behind it all to tie in roof.. intervening floors and foundations so that when the ground moves Ìýthe building does not kill you...Ìý Ìý to my mind then its not possible to restore a building using traditional materials only in a class 1 seismic area in fact i would doubt anyone would be able to get a building certificated as habitable without proof that there was some sort of intervention within the restoration to ensure it did not shake to bits..Ìý S Stefano is the proof that it can be done and it will look good and withstand major shocks.. but it comes at a very high cost... which when reading this forum you sort of get the idea that no-one is prepared for costs of normal restorations let alone one that will cost many times more.. a good idea might well be to look at the cost of a one bedroom small house in this remote village.. the cheapest there is in fact 198,000 euro.. from the look of it barely 40 m sq.. although they do not put a measurement so would say that i am giving it a generous margin.. which works out at 5000 euro a m sq when traditional property built to a safe standard in that area would be normally sold at less than 1000 euro a sq meter .. so it comes at a very high price.. this standard of work.. Ìý so whilst accepting the arguments that alternative solutions are available i do not accept that within class i or even 2 seismic zones they would provide you with a secure property to live in.. Ìýand that compacting floors by hand will be sufficient to secure a building that at some stage in its life is going to be shaken side to side like a dolls house by forces beyond most peoples comprehension without the normal concrete with steel mesh tying in the walls or metal bars through them.. or foundations packed hard against the foot of the wall tied around with steel to stop them slipping away... sorry i just do not accept that without a structural engineer advising on the interventions required that any of us can build a home or change structures securely unless we use at least a little bit of local awareness of buildings.. the local ratings of the area and the risks.. Ìýi know people like to use non italians and to complain over their work.. but i have seen many projects where the building has had all the major works carried out that ensure its safety .. put back together again to look like old and have no damp problems or safety issues using quick modern materials but also with the build not being constricted by a very low budget but a realistic one.. Ìýthats the problem i reckon for most of us.. is the illusion that work here can be carried out and produce a good result at a price below the norm.. it cannot but if people insist Ìýthe structural elements cannot be compromised but the filling in between those elements can be saved on.. Ìýfor instance a floor at ground level if you have the funds and tell the builder can be raised with air gaps and never have a damp problem .. but it costs a lot more.. so budget wise.. a sheet of plastic concrete and steel is poured in... to keep the area safe but it will be humid.. so you paint the walls every yera and keep the windows open once a day.. but that what you want to pay for the work..so they build it to a price... if you ask for the best way.. not the most economic.. and can explain what you want then you will get a home with no damp.. the opposite extreme of the S. Stefano place is the adverts for places at euro 25k-30k that used to be around.. Ìýthey seem to have gone now..for restored properties with furniture at around the euro 500 a sq meter.. never seen one in real life so cannot comment from that point of view .. but the truth is that you cannot touch a property for much less than that as a builder.. well they will not so how can it be .. the price of the old original building plus restoration and furniture for less than you can employ a builder to do the work for...makes no sense .. yet people seemed to be lapping the idea up last year... and thats the real problem.. peoples expectations if you can give them what they expect then they just seem to blindly accept... a long way from damp problems.. but having read another thread about someone having difficulties and the comments on ½ûÂþÌìÌà builders i thought to tie it all up in one reply.. ½ûÂþÌìÌà builders are not all c*** or whatever someone called them.. lime render is not the solution to all ... a balanced approach.. a proper budget.. enough knowledge to ensure you can talk to a project manager and help in the design... and realistic expectations of costs, time and how involved you will have to be are all essential to achieve a good build in any place.. its very easy if done right.. Ìý Ìý

i also got surprised by my name.. as i had stayed out of this thread...some of the comments regarding ½ûÂþÌìÌà builders making me see a slight shade of red.. because to my mind they are no worse than anywhere.. in fact historically much better than most.. what lets down the actual builders are the rules and the mindsets of various people involved in the planning and checking.. and the system that means you are often dependent on an idiot to run the project.. however a contract should stipulate if you have a dispute where you can go to resolve it.. Ìýits usually a less formal court to arbitrate a dispute with less fees and people involved... anyway it should be there in your contract and also Ìýas has been said the fact that buildings are guaranteed .. you should also have been asked to sign off on the work being concluded in a satisfactory way.. obviously not.. but did you make any points of concern when you signed off on the works.. this good be a good point if you did.. Ìý also did you get details of the builder and his registration and his insurance coverage.. this should have been in your contract too... further to that an important question is are you bi-lingual in the sense you understand italian.. if not the contract if not signed twice by you as a proof that you accepted it without understanding it is not legal either.. even signing twice .. a sort of strategy used by less scrupulous people working with foreigners should still leave you with a reasonable argument if you did or do not understand ½ûÂþÌìÌà as all contracts have to be in a language that you understand and if it needs translation the translator has a role to play in any dispute too.. Ìý the other very important part is you should have a final list of works, the costs, the tech specs of what was used in the build and this is basically the final account of your build.. in fact you should be approaching your project manager as he is in charge of checking works.. including quality problems your original posting was quite limited in info.. and its a lot more complicated if you are about to head down a legal path and you would have to explain an awful lot more about what and how the project came about... hopefully you were not tempted to reduce costs by paying anything that was not accounted for...

the times scales are set out.. and they know pretty well which areas of Italy will not comply but they will be fined.. most of central north italy will do or has already done most of the groundwork.. comune sites already have a good deal of the paperwork online.. the bottleneck has always regarded online payments but this law has specifically targeted that and it will soon be available.. so searching out your own comune on the internet and seeing how much is available will give a pretty good idea of its preperation

just to add to my posting re buildings getting knocked down.. it seems that they were unable to register them because of their roofs.. asbestos.. its quite common her to still find the old asbestos sheets on rural buildings and in general in the past no one checked or enforced laws on the use of.. i have not found the law regarding their existence and it will be there somewhere.. maybe penny you know.. anyway it seems that registering an old building if it has an asbestos roof is no longer that simple.. they insist its changed.. this involves specialist companies and the sheets have to go to a special waste site.. all very expensive.. plus then the rebuild costs and it seems like it was not considered worth the hassle to either the old or new owners.. so they bit the bullet and got rid of it all... there used to be a factory for the stuff in the province of L'Aquila.. of course all now closed but its another case of an area which is now contaminated by old industrial processes and nothing much has been done.. in fact relevant in these days because the removal of the debris from the centre of L'Aquila after the earth quake has to be treated as hazadros waste and therefore handled and stored with great care... one of the reasons a lot of the area is closed and makes the attempts by people there to make a point about clearing the debris in barrow loads as a protest rather sad .. as they took their children with them to add to the crowds.. and the fibres from this sort of material are very dangerous indeed anyway the stuff either asbestos or amianto ( very similar substances with the same risks)is banned now throughout italy even though at one stage like most industrial countries it was very widely used.. laws have been in place for many years regarding its disposal and use but largely ignored on rural buildings.. i guess its time that at least the comunes now are doing something about it... and i guess this process of making regular the property maps and how they are registered gives some of them that are more concerned a chance to rid the world of a very dangerous substance... should also add that its not always obvious as in sheets .. many buildings have it mixed in with the concrete before it was banned therefore making even rubble of a normal appearance become a hazardous controlled material as regards its handling and disposal.. any building constructed after 1992 should not have the material within it .. i presume geometras will know the history of an additional building and if they suspect it was constructed during the days when it was widely used both for thermal isolation or as a fire retardent then they will act to make sure everything is safe Ìý Ìý Ìý

harsh but true.. the only reason Italy is handling the crisis in a way that keeps its ratings high and is not in the same situation as much of europe is the fact that here the banks will not lend unless you have proof including a full time contract to prove that you can repay the loan.. ½ûÂþÌìÌà banks remain very secure and also have very strict lending rules which is one of the main reasons its so hard for the international banks to operate here..Ìý i think unless you can arrange a loan via one of the options suggested by andiamo its a pretty hopeless effort..you should also consider that a property that is mortgaged requires the intervention of a notary and that these costs alone will make a mortgage type loan on a property very unattractive if you consider you might be paying from 3-5000 euro just to have it notarised..Ìý