½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

Everything in Italy is local, remeber we became a country only in 1861 and the nation only started to speak italian after the 60' with television.

P

"the nation only started to speak italian after the 60'..."
What did they all speak before this? Latin :D

Was it after unification that that some languages were downgraded to dialects?

I recall reading somewhere that the Neapolitan dialect was once considered a language in its own right, having a body of literature published in it. And Sicilian really is its own language...

How come the Fiorentini were fluent in ½ûÂþÌìÌà when I learnt it in the 1960s when I lived there....Ah...hang on a minute....perhaps I don't speak ½ûÂþÌìÌà after all...that would explain a lot !!! ;) ...only joking Sano but i am a bit confused now :D

Local tradition in San Vito dei Normanni is to buy Alex and Lyn numerous presents !!! :D

Seriously now... :rolleyes: actually managed to buy Christmas wrapping paper today BUT NO Christmas Cards in shops ? ...panicking now...I haven't got to do a 'Blue Peter' and make them have I ???..That should be interesting !!! ...Don't hold your breath !!!

Blimey Roanld...getting tight with the 'smilies' !!!!!....have we got a Santa one yet for Christmas ????

[QUOTE=elainecraig]I'm intreged, are there any special italian traditions unique to a particular area or just purely ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ? Or even New Year traditions? :D[/QUOTE]

Elaine ... there used to be a New Years Eve tradition that you literally throw yer old stuff out the window at midnight.

I believe it's a bit frowned upon nowadays, as just imagine what it would be like to be hit on the head with a redundant kitchen chair from 3 floors above as you were weaving your merry way along to the next party :eek:

In reply to Alex and Lynn, I beleive that ½ûÂþÌìÌà IS Florentine. Other regions evolved forms of ½ûÂþÌìÌà differently from Latin, and some places greek. But we really need an italian scholar to clear this up.

So that's where all the second - hand furniture is !!!! ;) ....Sorry can't come to any New Year Parties...furnishing my house !!! :D

[QUOTE=alex and lyn]BUT NO Christmas Cards in shops ? QUOTE]

½ûÂþÌìÌÃs don't 'do' Christmas cards, you can occasionally buy packs of 6 UNICEF (I think) in the post office of all places or some cartoleria will sell individual ones but usually quite plain or quite tacky in comparison to the UK choices. So Blue Peter it is!

some italian history lessons are needed!!!

every region in italy has its own dialect. I am piemontese and I speak piemontese. My dad only learnt italian at school.

Beacuse of dante, the dolce stil novo and all the rest of it, the dialect from Florece, il fiorentino , is the one italina comes from. When Alessandro manzoni wrote the Promessi Sposi that is considered the first book written in italian, he said that he had to "lavare i panni in arno" that is he had to purify his milanese dialect.

Latin was only spoken until the fall of the roman empire, and even then it was a barbaric latin. the latin we study and learn is the latin from Cicero, mostly... but that's another story and this is getting long!!!

Paola

[QUOTE=elainecraig]I'm intreged, are there any special italian traditions unique to a particular area or just purely ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ? Or even New Year traditions? :D[/QUOTE]
To wear red underwear is supposed to bring you good luck for the following year. The shops will soon be full of little red lacy things.

Wishful thinker....you have answered something that has always confused me !!!! the ole Fiorentini always used to say ' We are the True ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs '...I thought that pretty arrogant at the time being a bit of a hippy :) ...but what I think they were actually saying was ...' Fiorentino/a ( la lingua ) e' il vero italiano !!...see...was useless at ½ûÂþÌìÌà then . :rolleyes: ..and I was only 18.....oooh happy days !!! :D

[QUOTE=Sano]Was it after unification that that some languages were downgraded to dialects?

I recall reading somewhere that the Neapolitan dialect was once considered a language in its own right, having a body of literature published in it. And Sicilian really is its own language...[/QUOTE]

Dialects are the languages of a restricted area and most has a latin root...Romans has been the inventor of globalization! :D
Due of many different dominations we have different dialects but I can assure you that all south Italy has almost common dialect: we can understand each other enough easily. In the north is really different...

...Maybe getting long to some but i am actually interested in all this..joking aside :)
Is there an English ½ûÂþÌìÌà Book ( My ½ûÂþÌìÌà not up to 'heavy' stuff yet...still on the kids books ...but they are very useful for grammer ) anyone could recommend on the History of Italy...really don't want anything too heavy ..just well written factual .
Also do school children learn their local dialect grammer at school or is it just spoken in the home?
Genuinely interested ...in fact have loads of questions if anyone is prepared to answer them if the Forum gets bored !!! :rolleyes:
See how thread goes..if no-one else intersted PM me. :)

[QUOTE=alex and lyn]...Is there an English ½ûÂþÌìÌà Book ( My ½ûÂþÌìÌà not up to 'heavy' stuff yet...still on the kids books ...but they are very useful for grammer ) anyone could recommend on the History of Italy...really don't want anything too heavy ..just well written factual .
Also do school children learn their local dialect grammer at school or is it just spoken in the home?
:)[/QUOTE]

Try "A Traveller's History of Italy" by Valerio Lintner published by Interlink Books. I think I found it through Amazon. It really is a potted history, the first chapter being "From Cave Dwellers....." and the last "Post War...." It is easy reading and with sufficient detail, but nothing too heavy.

Judging from my childrens experience of ½ûÂþÌìÌà schooling, ½ûÂþÌìÌà is the language of the classroom and dialect is left for the playground and home. You are right, dialect is fascinating, along one main road near to us, we have been told that every town has its distinctly different version of 'we go'! Amazing given that only a few miles, or should I say kms, separate them. A friend from Turin, now living in Le Marche cannot understand the local dialect and another from Sardegna could not understand the Sicillian dialect - so what chance do we have? When I first heard Neapolitan being spoken, to me it sounded nothing like ½ûÂþÌìÌà and I thought they were 'stranieri'!

"Latin was only spoken until the fall of the roman empire, and even then it was a barbaric latin."

Surely this is not true. Latin is the language of the church, and has never stopped being used. Even in the dark ages the monks had to have builders etc etc, so would still have had contact with the "locals"?

I guess I'll have to google this one...

This is pretty comprehensive on the subject.

[url]http://www.orbilat.com/½ûÂþÌìÌÃs/½ûÂþÌìÌÃ/½ûÂþÌìÌÃ.html[/url]

[QUOTE=Wishful Thinker]"Latin was only spoken until the fall of the roman empire, and even then it was a barbaric latin."

Surely this is not true. Latin is the language of the church, and has never stopped being used. Even in the dark ages the monks had to have builders etc etc, so would still have had contact with the "locals"?

I guess I'll have to google this one...[/QUOTE]

Latin is not only the language of Church....does anybody heard about a scientist Linneo? :rolleyes:
Thanks to him lots of Natural Science classifications are based on Latin... :p

You live and learn on this 'ere forum.

I have heard a rumour that the southern dialect is rather emmm regarded rather like a Cornish accent, certainly a countryside/farmers accent. So when I start getting cracking on the old italian will I speak it with a Puglian accent? And if you are based In Tuscany or Milan do you end up with a posh accent?

Lynn I hear foil, tinsel and glitter are good for card making or an old potato cut out as a piece of holly, I'll send my address cant wait for the delivery :D

its pretty big in our house too

I have a lovely northern accent so I'd be rey-hat at 'ome wit t' cowrunty accent chuck!

[QUOTE=anne2]To wear red underwear is supposed to bring you good luck for the following year. The shops will soon be full of little red lacy things.[/QUOTE]
If I wear red underwear will it make my house sale exchange happen quicker?

Have just ordered the History Book on Amazon...50p !!!! £4.44 with postage !!! Bargain !
Gonna look for Christmas cards now.....any suggestions for mail order ???

I am afraid it is true.
Latin is the language of the church, but that doesn't mean it is a spoken language. It is used only for writing. Latin, as ancient greek, is a dead language.

It was also used for scientific books. that still doesn't mean it was spoken. Latin was almost forgotten during the first third of the medieval era. Then the monks started studying it and codiefied all the grammar rules, minly through cicero, as I mentioned earlier. And latin was born again.

It is true that in Italy we do not understand each other's dialects. i hardly understan Milanese and i am from Torino, a dialect from the south its another language to me.

It is very interesting though!

P

[QUOTE=alex and lyn]Have just ordered the History Book on Amazon...50p !!!! £4.44 with postage !!! Bargain !
Gonna look for Christmas cards now.....any suggestions for mail order ???[/QUOTE]
Hi Alex and Lyn
Used the following site when we were in the uk and have continued to do so since moving out here. Excellent site and always (so far)good service with quick deliveries.
[url]www.charitycards.co.uk[/url]

Thanks David and Linda...great cards...have ordered some this morning !!!!That will save the 'Blue Petering ' !!!!!:D

New Year tradition in some regions: at midnight they collect old calenders, old diaries, and everything old really and throw them all out of the window, to get rid of all the problems the old year brought. This has toned down now and possibly banned by the police, as people used to throw out antyhing really, from old furniture to dishes. Not a good start for those happening to pass by.....

Francesco
[url]www.learnitalian.bravehost.com[/url]

...the odd husband perhaps !!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[QUOTE=alex and lyn]Thanks David and Linda...great cards...have ordered some this morning !!!!That will save the 'Blue Petering ' !!!!!:D[/QUOTE]

A pleasure glad you found the site of use.

Chaps, chaps I want ITALIAN traditions not English ones, thought it might be nice to take something typically ½ûÂþÌìÌà up to the folks at home then they can share an ½ûÂþÌìÌà moment with me (since my mums too ill to travel). Although I bet my mum will give it "dont like this Panettone rubbish its not a patch on wince pies" hooo hummm:confused:

try with Pandoro then.... but you can't beat Panettone at Christmas!! I bought a few in TKMaxx they have the Tre Marie ones that are excellent. I'll give them to family and friends for Christmas...

I can't think of anything else really...

P

I see that the ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs share one special Christmas tradition with the UK, that of spoiling Christmas(!)

Sorry if I sound like a ranting [i]Dail Mail[/i] reader, but there you go! Check out the link (read it & weep!):
[url]http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2005-12-06_2046382.html[/url]

[QUOTE=tuscanhills]I see that the ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs share one special Christmas tradition with the UK, that of spoiling Christmas(!)

Sorry if I sound like a ranting [i]Dail Mail[/i] reader, but there you go! Check out the link (read it & weep!):
[url]http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2005-12-06_2046382.html[/url][/QUOTE]

LOL awwww!!!! How mean!!! ;)

Well I found out in my ½ûÂþÌìÌà class that ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs share something very nice with some other European countries - but not the UK! It's exchanging presents on Xmas eve!! I've been missing this particular event since I moved here and am at the moment busy trying to convince my partner to at least exchange 1 pressie the night before! He doesn't want to budge... :( ;)

Stephanie (36 going on 5!!)

[QUOTE=Iona]LOL awwww!!!! How mean!!! ;)

Well I found out in my ½ûÂþÌìÌà class that ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs share something very nice with some other European countries - but not the UK! It's exchanging presents on Xmas eve!! I've been missing this particular event since I moved here and am at the moment busy trying to convince my partner to at least exchange 1 pressie the night before! He doesn't want to budge... :( ;)

Stephanie (36 going on 5!!)[/QUOTE]

Some families used to do this in South Africa - there was a division between those that opened gifts on Christmas Eve and those that opened on Christmas day. To keep the peace we used to open one gift each on C.Eve and the rest on C.Day.

[QUOTE=Sano]Some families used to do this in South Africa - there was a division between those that opened gifts on Christmas Eve and those that opened on Christmas day. To keep the peace we used to open one gift each on C.Eve and the rest on C.Day.[/QUOTE]

Merry Christmas Sano! We have the same problem here. When our boys were young they wanted to bring all their packages from home to their ½ûÂþÌìÌà grandma and grandpa's house because Christmas Eve was the big party and when the gifts were opened. ;) Now we open one Christmas Eve.

We understand that 'good' children get presents at Epiphany(Jan 6) when Befana an old woman delivers the presents. Does that mean they get two lots? We were told that they get maybe just one present on Christmas Day but wonder how true this is?

[QUOTE=DavidandLinda]We understand that 'good' children get presents at Epiphany(Jan 6) when Befana an old woman delivers the presents. Does that mean they get two lots? We were told that they get maybe just one present on Christmas Day but wonder how true this is?[/QUOTE]

We exchange presents on Christmas eve (after midnight).
Kids are lucky, because Befana delivers presents for them and... yes they get them twice: Christmas and Epiphany.
But usually "Befana" delivers only "little" presents,... toys, nothing more......since she's not a rich lady ;)

It's basically sweets and cakes they get for the Befana, or black coal if they've been naughty.

Francesco
[url]www.learnitalian.bravehost.com[/url]

[QUOTE=greatscott]Merry Christmas Sano! We have the same problem here. When our boys were young they wanted to bring all their packages from home to their ½ûÂþÌìÌà grandma and grandpa's house because Christmas Eve was the big party and when the gifts were opened. ;) Now we open one Christmas Eve.[/QUOTE]

Sounds very sensible to me!! :D

[QUOTE=Francesco]It's basically sweets and cakes they get for the Befana, or black coal if they've been naughty.

Francesco
[url]www.learnitalian.bravehost.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Yes, we were talking about the coal bit too ... one student in our class mentioned that a while ago Valvona & Crolla in Edinburgh sold bits of coal for a small fortune!! Well, given that you can get coal cheaply everywhere here for the open fireplaces, that seemed a bit over the top...

Stephanie

Coal, coal coal cant take that home theres allready stack of it in that there hills in Lancashire. On New Year's day its luck if a tall, dark handsome stranger comes through the house with a lump of coal (used to be the coalman no doubt) I suppose its lucky if a short, fat old man breaks into your house via the chimney, and leaves you a pressie from his big sack (oww errrrrr). :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Iona]Yes, we were talking about the coal bit too ... one student in our class mentioned that a while ago Valvona & Crolla in Edinburgh sold bits of coal for a small fortune!! Well, given that you can get coal cheaply everywhere here for the open fireplaces, that seemed a bit over the top...

Stephanie[/QUOTE]

Ah, but this was specially sourced, cleaned and chopped into itty bitty pieces just for Valvona & Crolla, hence the high price tag...

[QUOTE=Sano]Ah, but this was specially sourced, cleaned and chopped into itty bitty pieces just for Valvona & Crolla, hence the high price tag...[/QUOTE]

Aaahhhh!!!!! :D :D

Thanks for enlightening me, Sano! I think I'll stick to a small chunk of our plain non-smoking house coal.... ;)

Stephanie

"I'm intreged, are there any special italian traditions unique to a particular area or just purely ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ? Or even New Year traditions? "

umm i think somone already mentioned the celebration of Epiphany (epifania) 6th jan, more than 25th dec, (this is the same in spain and portugal). On the 6th la befana an old witch would play the roll of santa claus and sneak into the house and leave presants for good children...personally she used to scare the hell outa me! However these days, with tv and other marketting ploys santa claus and xmass on the 25th has taken over in terms of significance, for most of italy.
Apart from that, the only uniquely italian xmass traditions i can fink of is that of Presepe. Its originally a neapolitan tradition, but over time has spread to alot of southern italy, even in malta. Its the making of a "jesus in the manger scene" instead of the more northern european tradition of a tree which is german in origin.

hope that was helpful, cheers tommaso

One of the nicest traditions of Christmas goes on until after Befana /Epiphany. Check the article (on my website) "A part in the Christmas story" with photos of the artisans in the live Christmas scene. If you are in our area it willbe put on again Jan 6th and 8th starting at 5 p.m. On the 7th there is a special night time show starting at 8:30 in Vetralla's centro storico.