½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

Both the properties we bought had done exactly this - carried out the work and then got retrospective planning permission. Our lawyer got all the paperwork to show that the fines had been paid.

Do you know what the fines were that we imposed :confused:

can't recall off the top of my head, suspect that they were detailed in all the paperwork but it is in Italy (and we're still not there!) I will check when we do get there and let you know.

The bleep bleep bleep chain is crawling along, it stalled at the fourth buyer early this afternoon because there solicitor was in a meeting. Eventually after her meeting she released the contract to the fifth buyer who then decided she did not like a clause in the contract!!! The buyer apparently has faxed her solicitor and told her to release the contract irrespective of her last minute doubts. In the meanwhile the time limit from the release of the first contract had run out so an extension had to be got from the bottom of the chain. This has been granted. So at the moment we believe it has been released to number six in the chain, our buyer. Our solicitor has released the sale contract on our house down to our buyer, so hopefully any minute now they will cross and all will be exchanged!

Sorry for the rant but I'm ready to start banging my head against the wall .....

[QUOTE=Colibri]In the Sunday Times book 'Buying a Property in Italy' it states, and I quote, [I]"many home owners resort to bribery (which usually works) or simply put in illegal changes and wait for a fine or a state sanctioned condona or pardon"[/I] As bribery is presumably not a serious option does anybody have first hand experience of retrospectively paying a fine for building works instead of getting permission up front? How do the costs compare? After paying the fine, if you later decide to sell the property is the work legally acceptable to the notary? Do you put your hands up and volunteer to pay the fine or wait until the commune demands it?[/QUOTE]

Common practice in Italy. Doing work before the permit is issued. If you wait for permits you will wait forever.

[QUOTE=Frank]Common practice in Italy. Doing work before the permit is issued. If you wait for permits you will wait forever.[/QUOTE]

We asked about planning permission for swimming pools and were told not to bother, just go ahead put them in. We might get a fine of around 500 euros .............

[QUOTE=Technically Blonde]We asked about planning permission for swimming pools and were told not to bother, just go ahead put them in. We might get a fine of around 500 euros .............[/QUOTE]

Your becomming a real ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ. Worst case you get House Arrest. Thats why most ½ûÂþÌìÌà women have served time .

[QUOTE=Frank]Your becomming a real ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ. Worst case you get House Arrest. Thats why most ½ûÂþÌìÌà women have served time .[/QUOTE]

:D :D :D :D
I'm just so happy now - by Monday I will be in Italy, becoming even more a realy ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ!

[QUOTE=number six in the chain, our buyer. Our solicitor has released the sale.....[/QUOTE]

THAT sounds extremely DIFFICULT! And what can be understood from some other postings long chains are common in UK. Here (Finland) you usually have one in 'downline' who has to sell his apartment/house.

You've had a tough job! I hope you can close the deal nicely

We've just removed old garage doors and in its place have fitted a new window and a new door and are dividing the lower level into three bedrooms and also installing a staircase to the upper floor. The guy we bought the house from built it in the first place and we were going to get him to do the work but as the quote was quite laughable and being married to a builder in the first place, we have decided to do it ourselves. We did have a couple of meeting to discuss our plans with the geometra (dont know if that's spelt right) who never mentioned planning permissions although I'm not that ignorant to believe we wont need them, we have just carried on and we'll worry about that at a later stage, but how long can we leave it. The house in a long term investment so we dont plan on selling it for a long time if at all but am wondering what the fines will be.

TB, good luck this afternnoon, hope the champers is on ice and all goes well.:p o

[QUOTE=Panteric]THAT sounds extremely DIFFICULT! And what can be understood from some other postings long chains are common in UK. Here (Finland) you usually have one in 'downline' who has to sell his apartment/house.

You've had a tough job! I hope you can close the deal nicely[/QUOTE]

It's done, it's done - finally - now I can relax and become laid back ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

Bribery does work in many areas as we've had to use this method ourselves; although it only cost us a bottle of French champagne, to get the telephone line put in, 9 months earlier than previewed.

However, with regards planning permission, we bought a trulli with a new extension that is illegal, not knowing that of course, and found out 9 months later through an agency friend's investigations, that part of our property was in fact illegal.

Bribery is not on the cards this time, so we now have a top lawyer doing the work to make the original estate agent/part owner/part responsible for building an extension without permission to rectify our housing situation and make us legal. The agent responsible, ie the bad apple, and not the agent trying to help us out; is now saying of course that he never had anything to do with it, just sold us part of the house, the bit of course that is actuallyl egal. Strange though as it's all written in black and white that he sold us the illegal bit.

So in theory, he hasn't got a leg to stand on, however, I'll hold my breath for the outcome. Just hope it goes in our favour.

I'll let you know.

Macy

Shouldn't the notary have checked this out also before completion, what was said about his part in the dealings :confused:

First of all I remind you that bribery and building without permissions are still crimes, even if made in Italy.
So if anyone suggest it, you better consider all the consequences.

About planning permissions.
They are necessary for new constructions or for restorations.
The kind of permission is variable
There is one very simple, that technically is not a real permission: it's called Denuncia di Inizio Attività (DIA) and it's a mere communication that the owner send to the local authority, describing (with technical attachements) the type of work he's going to start on his property.
If the comune doesn't object within a specific period (quite short, but I can't rememeber it at the moment) you're free to start the works.
DIA is used essentially for all kind of renovations that don't imply modifications for the static of the building or new volumes, but its field of application has been recently furthermore increased. A geometra or architect might have more informations
For bigger kind of activities there is a permission called Permesso di costruire (permission to build) and it's used essentially for new buildings.
Both DIA and Permesso di costruire are of course possibile only if the local Piano Regolatore allows the kind of work asked with them, so if you own a mere rural land, you're not allowed to build a villa on it.
This is how it works now.
What's happened in the past ?
½ûÂþÌìÌÃs don't like rules.
There have been many constructions built without permissions or differently from the permissions given.
For settling this situation, thare have been 3 "condoni" (1985 - 1995 - 2002): who have made the building "abuses" regular, paying a fine.
But remember that not all the abuses could be eliminated: i.e. if the building is in a natural park, or an historical/archeological area or the new construction is dangerous etc.
When a house is sold, the seller must give to the notary all the building permissions and (if there's one) a copy of his "condono" with the demonstration that all the fines have been payed.
The notary must check the documents and if he/she notices something strange (i.e. a permission for a 5 rooms house while the seller is selling a 8 rooms house - it's just a semplification of course) he must warn the buyer and, moreover, cannot draft the contract, because an house cannot be sold if it is not regular.
Building permissions are not required if the house has been built before 1.9.1967.
For further informations next time, I've to go now :o

[QUOTE=paula hampson]Shouldn't the notary have checked this out also before completion, what was said about his part in the dealings :confused:[/QUOTE]

We would have hoped so and infact expected this to have happened but apparently we had written on the contract somewhere that it was a private deal and thus the notary was not to have any responsibility but only took on the information that was given to him as good. Privata something or other. Of course the guy we bought the house from arranged all this and we just let him, believing he was working for our best. Stupid or what?

Thanks for the info on permissions, Notaio, interesting considering our existing position. I just hope our new reputable Solicitor will work it all out for us.

Hi, Can anyone help me, this is going to be a laugh....... From the day we submit plans, how long does it take before we will here anything, we have been told providing plans are passed its normally a month.... i have a feeling i read it took about 90 days , is it a case of how long is a piece of string! :rolleyes: the house is in Le Marche, Francesca.

[QUOTE=FRANTIANI]Hi, Can anyone help me, this is going to be a laugh....... From the day we submit plans, how long does it take before we will here anything, we have been told providing plans are passed its normally a month.... i have a feeling i read it took about 90 days , is it a case of how long is a piece of string! :rolleyes: the house is in Le Marche, Francesca.[/QUOTE]

For us- it took about 3 or 4 weeks yo get the permission to do the works from the Commune

- we had half finished it by then - our geometra said we risked a neighbour reporting us for working without a permit - but we are on good terms with them - so no problems

FRANTIANI, different comune's take different times, if you are over here, drop into your local comune to check with them. good luck.

Our property is Le Marche we were told by our geometra that as the only external alteration was increasing the size of one window and all window replacements were of the same material and the rest of the work was gutting the inside totally and complete rebuild we had to apply for permission and if it was not turned down in 28 days the work could commence but if any part of the building was deemed to be unsafe we could start that part of the work immediately

permission for us took about 3 weeks.... we also started work before it was approved....but again i cannot say do this.... we are comfortable with our commune...its officers and the geometra/technicians.... so it works for us.... we often have to put in retrospective declarations of work....which are just to keep the paperwork hungry communes happy... but agian you have to be comfortable with not only officials but neighbours to proceed this way... we also live in one of the cheapest communes for payments related to planing permissions.... legal payments i mean... a sort of local tax when you submit plans and get them approved... . i think we paid a couple of hundred euro... but it can run into thousands and varies from commune to commune

the best way is the right way... i notice paula saying in a sense they were changing the use of a garage ... i would say that is one to be quite wary of... residential accomodation has very different rules to say sheds or garages... and each designated new room in italy has its designated minimum size and volume....... so if you do plan on changing say a cantena or garage make sure you always refer to it as the work kitchen or well furnished tool room...whatever....

do not assume that the system and the officials are corrupt and that all you can expect is a smack on the hand and a limited fine.... if you take that attitude to often honest and hardworking officials here they will resent the implication that you seem to think you can do as you want... and things will get worse...be very humble and apologetic....

i agree with the notary... better to take a small amount of time extra... using a building expert...either geometra or whatever to assist in advicing on what you can and cannot do...and if you have to submit the plans...employ the electrician or the geologist... the technical structural engineer... then do so.... and there will always be one rule for locals who have inhabited the place over generations and one for newcomers.... which is why if you pay a local geometra working in the commune you live in it is worth a lot more to you as he will be there protecting your back ....

Well said John I have always found it easier to work within the law and with the officials, both in Italy and in England. I have achieved more doing it that way. One good thing I found in Italy is the Commune does not launch into a consultation process, particularly with the neighbours. However, it does not mean that they cannot make life difficult for you, particularly if you are not working within the law. If the commune knows what you are doing and approves then complaints will be handled sympathetically.

Serge

[QUOTE=Colibri]In the Sunday Times book 'Buying a Property in Italy' it states, and I quote, [I]"many home owners resort to bribery (which usually works) or simply put in illegal changes and wait for a fine or a state sanctioned condona or pardon"[/I] As bribery is presumably not a serious option does anybody have first hand experience of retrospectively paying a fine for building works instead of getting permission up front? How do the costs compare? After paying the fine, if you later decide to sell the property is the work legally acceptable to the notary? Do you put your hands up and volunteer to pay the fine or wait until the commune demands it?[/QUOTE]
What you read about bribery in italy is unfortunately true. However there're better (legal) ways:

a) Permesso di costruzione (=application for Planning permission): for all kinds of building works; you'll have to wait for approval, officially within 60 days but it often takes a little more;

or

b) Denuncia di inizio attività: for a limited range of works - simply put, only for small interior works; you don't have to wait for approval, since your application is automatically accepted if you do not receive an answer in 30 days.

Then, if the work is already done without permissions there're two legal ways:

c) Permesso di costruzione in sanatoria (=Retrospective application) for those works which would have required a)
d) Presa d'atto for those works which would have required b)

In both cases the fine is that you have to pay 200% of standard application fees (which may be quite expensive expecially for new buildings or additions). Of course c) and d) are only acceptable if the work is compliant to building regulations, both present and past (at the time of building)

Finally, there're e) condona, even for works which are not totally compliant to regulations; condona should be a one-off solution, but they occur too often in Italy.

All works done after a) b) c) d) are perfectly acceptable to the notary.
Works done after e) should be acceptable too, but with some limitations (e.g. you may not be allowed further addition or change of use). Please do not rely on condona!

I do not only not approve any bribery, but also thing legal ways are easier, better, faster, cheaper than illegal ones (even in italy - and I AM NOT "a lover of all things italian, sorry for the forum title")

Claudio
PostPop
[url]www.postpop.co.uk[/url]

I've been reading the forum with great interest and I am happy to have found it.
I may be mad but in the next couple of months I will probably buy land in western Liguria and build a house on it! My husband and I (now living in France) have built in the States and France and experienced the pain and joy of it. It's just too expensive to buy ready built in Liguria.
My questions are: I'm seriously looking at one plot that has an "approved plan" - basically a drawing of the intended "house" with a stamp on it. I was told I would have to then submit a plan for final approval which would cost about 8000 euro. I suppose this would be with the structural/engineering details and I'm not sure if the payment is just to the commune or would this include the geometra's fee and drawings??? Am I understanding things or not.
Is there anything I should be sure is in the compromesso before I put my signature on it? Water and electricity are on the road and so is a sewer apparently. I don't speak ½ûÂþÌìÌà so this will definitely make the experience more difficult than building in the past but we love Italy!
Any advice, suggestions, comments are greatly appreciated.
thank you
Sarah

sarah

you should definitely contact the uk lawyer firms mentioned in other threads... the stamp of aproval at the moment seems to favor giambrone and law...

why because in a sense the proposal to buy will need to be conditional on the approval to build...a more complicated situation... you are basically making a conditional contract

however you also need to tie down costs of a new build which again will make for an interesting and dificult contract...

to give you an example of costs... new build average materials e1000 per m sq... plus iva(tax) at 20 per cent....

i doubt your new house will be smaller than say 200 m sq.... so build costs will be minimum 240000 euro plus fees assocaited with planning and design and permissions.... declaration of habitable dwelling and various other local taxes... director of works ... another 20 per cent...but this can be higher depending on your commune...280,000....

then you move on to any outside work.... ie fencing the property ...gates inot...driveway ...etc etc.... will take you well into the region of 300,000 euro in total... plus the cost of the land

i think you might well be able to find a ready built property at less than the above...though maybe not exactley as you require it....

oh yes and another thing with builds like this allow two years for the whole process.... there are certain times of the year nothing happens here because of the weather or holidays.... and even though 18 months might be realistic... two years is giving you a bit of lee way.....

so its a costly,slow and complicated process and from the very start if this is your choice you are right.... get the contractural details tied up first.... because like the build the foundations of the project need to be very firm if you are going to be able to be happy and confident of the process

good luck....

Thank you for your advice and idea of prices. Sounds right on target.
I was a little concerned to read from another thread that the notary didn't protect the buyer. I thought the notary was there to make sure everything was correct for both sides?
Any Ligurians out there know a reliable English speaking notary?
thanks
sarah

The noataio in Vallecrosia speaks a certain amount of English.

[QUOTE=Colibri]In the Sunday Times book 'Buying a Property in Italy' it states, and I quote, [I]"many home owners resort to bribery (which usually works) or simply put in illegal changes and wait for a fine or a state sanctioned condona or pardon"[/I] As bribery is presumably not a serious option does anybody have first hand experience of retrospectively paying a fine for building works instead of getting permission up front? How do the costs compare? After paying the fine, if you later decide to sell the property is the work legally acceptable to the notary? Do you put your hands up and volunteer to pay the fine or wait until the commune demands it?[/QUOTE]

You have a big problem in case authority discover you while you are building changes! Today permissions are much lighter and faster to get as it was, with exeption for Historic Monuments, so I would suggest to follow the right way.:)