½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

[QUOTE=greatscott]Rather than digging into long term problems that need to work their way through
the systems in Italy, we intend to take personal responsibility for what we can
when we buy a home in Italy. There are things we can do to make a smoother transition into a different culture. We can have respect for our land and take
care of it. We can keep with the local customs and blend in with what is accepted. We can become good examples of what expats can bring to local communities. We can be clean, decent and respectable, and lend a helping hand to others. We love Italy and want to do our little part. Maybe nobody will ever notice, and that's okay because we will know we're doing this as our personal contribution to this beautiful country.[/QUOTE]

i think you aims are honourable.. best of luck.

A good point and very well put. :)

Nicely put Greatscott.

As immigrants (which is all an expat is) there is a responsibility to respect the native culture, and to be sensitive to local norms and customs. There are times when things have to be challenged, but not every thing that is different warrants a fight. (Hope this makes sense).

Well expressed, Great Scott. Good luck with your move.

Couldn't have put it better.... we're with you on this.

cannot argue with the original sentiments of the post.... however beg to differ on my status as an expat....god forbid....

i am a european citizen with right of abode in any of europe... i considered myself this long before a lot of the different treaties were signed and am proud to be a european citizen and hence a citizen of italy or any other geographical named location in europe.... definitley not expat... or an immigrant...for that matter either... by defenition that would mean if i left my birth place of london and moved to kent i would also be an immigrant.... i chose teramo instead...just a bit further in distance...

in saying this i also regard the world as my home.... but as yet no one has ratified or signed up to that formally ... so cannot make claims on citizenship or migration status there

[QUOTE=adriatica]cannot argue with the original sentiments of the post.... however beg to differ on my status as an expat....god forbid....

i am a european citizen with right of abode in any of europe... i considered myself this long before a lot of the different treaties were signed and am proud to be a european citizen and hence a citizen of italy or any other geographical named location in europe.... definitley not expat... or an immigrant...for that matter either... by defenition that would mean if i left my birth place of london and moved to kent i would also be an immigrant.... i chose teramo instead...just a bit further in distance...

in saying this i also regard the world as my home.... but as yet no one has ratified or signed up to that formally ... so cannot make claims on citizenship or migration status there[/QUOTE]

When I lived in the Dolomite mountains the woman who had arrived from Genoa 20 or more years ago was still considered a foreigner and the folk from down the bottom of the valley were regarded with suspicion and disdain. We were quite simply aliens but tolerated in an ET sort of way. Now that we live in Tuscany - abroad seems to start at the confines of the region although there is still rivalry between adjoining provinces - (in the province to the west of us they can't drive very well apparently).
In the U.K. we talk of the north-south divide and some old yorkshiremen still claim there are scores to be settled over the war of the roses. But in the main the population is so mixed up that the question - where were you born? seems less and less relevant. There is an ½ûÂþÌìÌà expression that says it all: it is about wives and cows and their provenance but I don't remember it - can anyone help?

Agree with the sentiments of Adriatica
We do not consider ourselves as either immigrants or expats.
We are British Europeans who happen to be currently living in Italy.

[QUOTE=DavidandLinda]Agree with the sentiments of Adriatica
We do not consider ourselves as either immigrants or expats.
We are British Europeans who happen to be currently living in Italy.[/QUOTE]

Wheras, the Original posters are a pleasant American couple who are relocating to Europe to continue their lives here, they expressed their view of the way they hope to live, a sentiment I admire no matter how they regard themselves, ex pats, europeans or citizens of the world, the view of how they hope to live remains admirable.

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Wheras, the Original posters are a pleasant American couple who are relocating to Europe to continue their lives here, they expressed their view of the way they hope to live, a sentiment I admire no matter how they regard themselves, ex pats, europeans or citizens of the world, the view of how they hope to live remains admirable.[/QUOTE]

Indeed!

I would wonder if someone who does not regard themselves as an immigrant would be prepared to give their all for their adopted country, or would sit on the fence when tough issues came along? Or is this a question for a different thread?

[QUOTE=sdoj]When I lived in the Dolomite mountains the woman who had arrived from Genoa 20 or more years ago was still considered a foreigner and the folk from down the bottom of the valley were regarded with suspicion and disdain. We were quite simply aliens but tolerated in an ET sort of way. Now that we live in Tuscany - abroad seems to start at the confines of the region although there is still rivalry between adjoining provinces - (in the province to the west of us they can't drive very well apparently).
In the U.K. we talk of the north-south divide and some old yorkshiremen still claim there are scores to be settled over the war of the roses. But in the main the population is so mixed up that the question - where were you born? seems less and less relevant. There is an ½ûÂþÌìÌà expression that says it all: it is about wives and cows and their provenance but I don't remember it - can anyone help?[/QUOTE]

The expression, quite an amusing one, it's "moglie e buoi dei paesi tuoi" It means that you should choose your wife and cows close to where you live, so, really, you know what to expect.

In Italy the divide between North and South still exists, and in a way everybody is proud of the local traditions and tries to keep them alive, in many places dialects are still widely spoken. This is due to historical reasons, when up to 1800 every region was a state in its own right.

A part from this I think that the general attitude of ½ûÂþÌìÌà people when they see "foreigners" is of curiosity, I find that most ½ûÂþÌìÌà people like the British, the young generation thinks of England and London as a "cool" place where to go, whereas the middle aged people like the fact that British are in general respectful of the local customs. I have lived in the UK for some time and always felt very welcome, I hope my fellow countrymen will make you feel the same!

[QUOTE=Sano]Indeed!

I would wonder if someone who does not regard themselves as an immigrant would be prepared to give their all for their adopted country, or would sit on the fence when tough issues came along? Or is this a question for a different thread?[/QUOTE]

I have recently been reading some experiences of English ex pats in Italy during WW2, the view seemed to be initially to get on with "it" as best as they could, protecting and in several cases feeding their ½ûÂþÌìÌà friends, then later in the conflict adding by also giving shelter to escaped prisoners of war (as did many ½ûÂþÌìÌà people too). Not sure how people would react nowadays though, blooming good question though.

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Wheras, the Original posters are a pleasant American couple who are relocating to Europe to continue their lives here, they expressed their view of the way they hope to live, a sentiment I admire no matter how they regard themselves, ex pats, europeans or citizens of the world, the view of how they hope to live remains admirable.[/QUOTE]

Actually could not agree more George and we commented as such earlier in the thread.

Group hug everyone :D Seriously though, I would like to think we all feel this way.

[QUOTE=eliana]The expression, quite an amusing one, it's "moglie e buoi dei paesi tuoi" It means that you should choose your wife and cows close to where you live, so, really, you know what to expect.

In Italy the divide between North and South still exists, and in a way everybody is proud of the local traditions and tries to keep them alive, in many places dialects are still widely spoken. This is due to historical reasons, when up to 1800 every region was a state in its own right.

A part from this I think that the general attitude of ½ûÂþÌìÌà people when they see "foreigners" is of curiosity, I find that most ½ûÂþÌìÌà people like the British, the young generation thinks of England and London as a "cool" place where to go, whereas the middle aged people like the fact that British are in general respectful of the local customs. I have lived in the UK for some time and always felt very welcome, I hope my fellow countrymen will make you feel the same![/QUOTE]

Thanks for that, the first time I heard it was in a Veneto dialect, which is probably why it didn't stick in my memory - much more lyrical in proper ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ. I was referring to the U.K. N-S divide forgetting that it is an inverted version of the ½ûÂþÌìÌà S-N divide but that's about it in shaken-up England. Whereas Italy, as you say, is full of provincial/regional pride and rivalry and as a result it makes Italy a more interesting place. I will probably always feel like an outsider looking in but there's nothing wrong with that. This isn't to say I don't feel welcome because I do - very welcome - just different. Even if I thought it possible, I wouldn't want a totally homogenised Europe although there is something to be said for pinching the best aspects and habits of your neighbours existence and levelling up. As we say of our nearest neighbours (and rivals) - the French - VIVE LA DIFFERENCE.

i also would not like to think as all europe being one place one theme...my point is that there is a certain resistance and national pride that often make people less likely to be able to adapt to what is now on most of our passports...european citizens...so it is impossable to be an immigrant to an area of europe in which you are a citizen already...with the same rights as any person born within the eu...

as to tough issues... i think i do not sit on the fence at all.... indeed some might say i should a bit more... but maybe i dont really understand the posting...i did say i felt the original postings sentiments admirable... though i would regard them as also very hard to live up to... so sano ... if you would like to start a fresh post then maybe i will be able to understand more and george no doubt will work hard to convince me that ww2 was the best time to live

[QUOTE=adriatica]i also would not like to think as all europe being one place one theme...my point is that there is a certain resistance and national pride that often make people less likely to be able to adapt to what is now on most of our passports...european citizens...so it is impossable to be an immigrant to an area of europe in which you are a citizen already...with the same rights as any person born within the eu...

as to tough issues... i think i do not sit on the fence at all.... indeed some might say i should a bit more... but maybe i dont really understand the posting...i did say i felt the original postings sentiments admirable... though i would regard them as also very hard to live up to... so sano ... if you would like to start a fresh post then maybe i will be able to understand more and george no doubt will work hard to convince me that ww2 was the best time to live[/QUOTE]

John, I'm pretty sure it was an horrific time in which to live, I certainly wouldn't like to see its like.

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]John, I'm pretty sure it was an horrific time in which to live, I certainly wouldn't like to see its like.[/QUOTE]

Bravo. Most Eloquently put.

In Friuli the saying goes "donne e buio del paesi tuoi" which translated really means women and oxen from your own village/town/area - this fortunately doesn't still apply particularly for the younger generations. Or "campanilismo" meaning "parochialism or exaggerated local pride" I would prefer to be regarded as European rather than "straniera" but I have heard stories of even italian immigrants returning after a lifetime abroad and not being treated the same. As has often been pointed out on this forum every area has its particular reality.mandi