½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

I think agents all over the world use that tactic! I'd say the odds are about 60/40 that they are bluffing.
There is no particular amount that you 'have to' put forward as a deposit; in fact, you can a make written 'proposta d'aquisito' with no deposit at all; its just less likely to be taken seriously and, of course, the vendor has no reason not to gazump you, if someone else puts in a higher offer.
Your phrase 'not move until I am fully ready' is very telling. You should absolutely NOT move until you are fully ready, either for your own sake or that of the vendors. Have you asked the agent to produce a Planimetria (ground plan) and Estratto Catastale (record of ownership from the Land Registry)? They should be able to do this in order to satisfy you that the owner has title to the property they are selling and they should do it at no cost to you. Visit the property and check that the buildings and boundaries correspond exactly with what you see. If you want a survey or builder's report, I'd recommend doing that before you pay any money over as a deposit.
Once those things are in place, if you lose the house to another buyer, because you are not ready, then that's just tough.
Good luck!

I believe that this is a common, or common enough, tactic employed by agents. It was tried on us. We were told that another couple had expressed an interest in a property and were prepared to move on it immediately, therefore to protect our position we should make a commitment, pay a deposit and sign the 'promesso'. We didn't - what ensured was a flurry of phone calls from the agent - but that was that - we went with another agent and started our search again. That was in February 2004. We since bought another property. We drove passed the original property in June of this year. It was still empty, 'for sale' boards still up!!

Sage advice all round. Thanks.

"Have you asked the agent to produce a Planimetria (ground plan) and Estratto Catastale (record of ownership from the Land Registry)?"

The agent did give me a floor plan drawn up by a geometra which certainly looked legit. However (and at the time I had no reason to doubt this at the time) the agent also stated that the property was wholy registered on the urban register. An email from the agent received yesterday now suggests that only half of the property is in fact so registered.

"Your phrase 'not move until I am fully ready' is very telling."

Fair point, I suppose I am still a little unsure. Call it sixth sense, I don't know, maybe I'm just not very trusting when it comes to large financial outlay. Some of the horror stories I've read on this forum have been a wake up call too :)

Andy, Marc's phrase was "ground plan" showing the precise size and location of any land in addition to the drawn floor plan from a Geometra... the tactic you mentioned is used all over the world mate. Good Luck, remember, the rose coloured glasses should be removed before agreeing to anything...

[QUOTE=Ian and Sandra]We drove passed the original property in June of this year. It was still empty, 'for sale' boards still up!![/QUOTE]

We made an offer 3 years ago on a house in my dads village, which was accepted. Came back to England to sort out finances, deposit, etc. Then get a call to say they're selling to someone else as he offered more. Anyhow, it turned out the new owner thought he saw an easy buck. He proceeded to remarket it at double what we offered :mad: Three years later it's still standing empty, which serves him right, but a lovely house is just going to collapse eventually as it needed work which he hasn't bothered with!

[QUOTE=Ian and Sandra]I believe that this is a common, or common enough, tactic employed by agents. It was tried on us. We were told that another couple had expressed an interest in a property and were prepared to move on it immediately, therefore to protect our position we should make a commitment, pay a deposit and sign the 'promesso'. [/QUOTE]

I'm not here to support ½ûÂþÌìÌà agents but.....

Do keep in mind that they generally don't offer discounted fees to the vendor for sole agency agreements so if there are a lot of agents in the area they may all have the property - but only the one that makes the sale gets a fee.

This does put pressure on them to close the sale ASAP if they have a prospective purchaser as they often won't have a clue if the vendor is considering offers forwarded by another agent and run the risk of making nothing and having an annoyed ex-purchaser on their hands.

Cheers

David Johnson

If anybody's interested, I have an update :D

As has been pointed out already on this thread, I did have a few lingering doubts about this property. Essentially it was the right property, in the right place...but at the wrong price. So I calculated how much I felt the repair/renovation work may cost and put in an offer at asking price less that amount (worked out about 10%). Now, I genuinely consider this to have been a reasonable offer buut the agent roundly rejected it seemingly without consulting the vendor. Absolutely no negotiation, he said.

So that's sadly that. :( The hunt starts all over again.

To be honest I'm gutted but I really did have to stick to my guns on this. I was pushing the budget in the first place, so maybe I've got to accept that it's a serious sellers market at present and also that I''m well and truly priced out of the Itria Valley.

I think you've definately made the right decision. At the end of the day there's no use paying for something and running out of funds to renovate! And I'm a firm believer in 'if you didn't get it, there's a reason for it' :rolleyes: Hopefully the right one is just around the corner :)

Andy, you've had a "gut feeling" that this was the wrong buy from the beginning, you were right, and I am sure you will find the right one too, I wish you all the best mate, and hope you find it soon...

What you are saying certainly highlights one of the many risks involved, which can easily be overlooked when someone is getting carried away by the dream of owning a property in Italy.

Obtaining planimetrie or estratti catastali is just the staring point. Other more important, pre-contractual searches and enquiries should be carried out prior to making an offer. For example, if you are buying a property that needs renovating, one of the first things you really need to do is to check for any local planning restrictions.

If you are really pushed and have found a property you like that appears to have potential then you might be interested to know that the ½ûÂþÌìÌà Civil Code expressly states that parties can make contracts with whatever content they choose and are not restricted to the types of contract regulated in the codes.

My advice is to use this provision to your advantage by drafting a proposta d’acquisto or preliminary contract with conditional clauses that entitle you to withdraw in the event any of the conditions are not fulfilled. The vendor can resist of course but at least you can walk away without penalty if it all goes pear shaped. Legally, you don’t have to pay a deposit, but no vendor will want to do business unless you put your money on the table. Be warned however, paying a deposit does not prevent the vendor from selling the property to someone else if he/she is being offered a higher price.

Conditional clauses are useful if drafted properly. Bear in mind that any conditions you stipulate must be clear and precise, otherwise they may be declared void for uncertainty.

Not many overseas buyers will know about local contractual and property law and this is why it is important to seek proper professional advice right at the start.

"Be warned however, paying a deposit does not prevent the vendor from selling the property to someone else if he/she is being offered a higher price."

They would have to give you double your deposit back though, no?

They would have to give you double your deposit back though, no?[/QUOTE]

Yes...but would you want to face the prospect of seeking lenghty and costly remedial action?

I have some friends (they have a successful company in Southern Marche and are not short of a bob or two) who face this problem. Two years have gone by and despite the hearings, they still haven't got their deposit back (which was a substantial amount of money).

I think Charles makes a good point about the conditional clauses. Offers should be drafted with a deposit ("ie. I am not a time waster") that then becomes a binding earnest money deposit upon acceptance with a "get out" clause subject to the outcome of a survey or initial searches that may negatively impact the enjoyment or commercial value of the property. Such get out clauses are an exception to the ½ûÂþÌìÌà civil code art. 1385 meaning you don't necessarly get double the deposit back.

Do remember though, that a thorough and properly worded & accepted purchase offer can force a sale through just like a compromesso. Sometimes, estate agents will give you the impression that such offers are simply to take the property off the market. This can be a double edged sword!

David
[url]www.ourtoscana.com[/url]

A lot of will depend upon the circumstances of the purchase but you will need to bear in mind that a contract will only come about if both parties intend to be contractually bound. In other words the contract has to be reciprocal.

With the proposta d’acquisto (revocable at any time until it has been accepted) and the proposta d’acquisto irrevocabile (revocable only after the given period of time for acceptance has expired), this occurs when the vendor accepts your offer in writing. But until that happens, only the buyer is bound. In other words the agreement is unilateral.

It can be especially confusing for many when Common law systems are usually suspicious of agreements where only one party is bound. After all, would you want to bind yourself or pay money when the recipient is under no obligation to give or promise to give something in return?

So, you have seen your dream house, made your offer, paid your deposit and then decide to pull out before the vendor accepts…what happens next? The deposit you pay is called the deposito causionale (not caparra) and is refundable (although it is always wise to stipulate this in the offer). After the vendor accepts your offer, the principle of reciprocity kicks in and your offer and deposit (now known as the caparra) is subject to the provisions as per articles 1351, 1385 and 1386 of the Civil Code.

Claims for non-performance or damages are granted only when an agreement is binding. There are two distinct articles in the Civil Code that lay down provisions for the non-performance of contracts: The Clausola Penale and the Caparra (deposit). The Clausola Penale (not used for house purchases) concerns itself with compensating the injured party for any loss caused by breach of contract, although the compensation is limited, unless stipulated otherwise, to what the defendant promised. For example, a building contractor promises to rectify certain problems and then fails to deliver. Your compensation is limited to getting the defects rectified.

The Caparra on the other hand is governed by the following:

A) Caparra penitenziale: article 1386

If you fail or refuse to perform the contract without lawful reason after you have entered into a binding contract you will lose your entire deposit. However, there is some comfort in that you will have, by law, the same route to compensation if the vendor pulls out without lawful reason, and he/she forfeits double your deposit.

B) Caparra confermatoria: article 1385

As with the caparra penitenziale, if you fail or refuse to perform the contract without lawful reason after entering into a binding contract you will lose your entire deposit. If the vendor pulls out without lawful reason, he/she forfeits double your deposit. Additionally, in the event of a material breach, not only is the claimant entitled to recover the caparra as outlined above, he/she can seek a hearing to enforce the performance of the contract. For example, if the vendor has sold the house to someone else in the meantime, the buyer is not only entitled to receive the deposit, he/she is entitled to receive damages equal to the value of the property.

Be under no illusion…seeking remedial action through the courts is a cumbrous and expensive process so it pays to be prudent and to sort everything out right at the start.

Thanks for the many kind and learned posts and PMs. Now that I've had a week or so to get used to it I'm a little more philosophical about the situation. So much so that, figuratively speaking, I'm about to climb back on board the horse from which I was so cruelly thrown ;) and get back over to Puglia to resume my search.

It's certainly been an experience from which I've learned a tremendous amount. This will serve me well the next time. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's now a level playing field between me and the estate agents of Puglia but the slope is certainly less severe ;)

Just a quick one... If you put in a written offer, the agent is legally bound to inform the proprietor of your offer. Sit in the office until he makes the call.