½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

lo is used when the noun that follows starts with "s" + another consonant, e.g. lo studente, lo scherzo. There are some other rules as well but I can't rmember them. I think, for instance, it's "lo zio".

Look it up in your grammar book - you do have a grammar book, don't you?

As for gender, nouns ending in "a" are usually feminine and nouns ending in "o" are usually masculine. Again though, a grammar book will give you all the rules.

I know, it looked like I was just being lazy, but actually I'm intrigued linguistically as why there should be two male articles- french just one male one female, same spanish, german masc fem and neuter.
I actually thought i'd imagined the 'il' one for a while- I've been using italianissimo, bbc;and I couldnt find it explained anywhere in the book, i thought i'd just brought it in from spanish. So this is casued by some confusion for me as I was intensively learning spanish before i started italian last year. The two certainly help each other, but the cos theyre so close i often dont know whether the word that's sprung to mind is spanish or italian.
jackie

The reason I read somewhere was that from the ½ûÂþÌìÌà POV, "il" followed by "sp" or "st" or "sch" is more difficult to say that "lo" in those instances. It is interesting to compare with the feminine forms where they occur, e.g "la scuola".

The thing that intrigues me about the use of the article in italian is why they need so darned many of them. If you're saying "my shoe" why do you need to say "the my shoe"? I can't remember a great deal of the latin I was supposed to have learned in school - yes, sadly, I go back that far - but I don't remember latin working that way. French doesn't do it; as far as I know, Spanish doesn't do it and English doesn't so how come ½ûÂþÌìÌà has it?

I find it particularly funny ever since I discovered that slavic languages - well certainly Russian, anyway - uses no definite or indefinite articles at all. It got me thinking that, actually, you don't really need them. For instance: "give me book" is not enhanced much by the use of "the" or "a", and is probably quite clear in context.

Maybe I shouldn't be getting involved in this thread as my ½ûÂþÌìÌà leaves a lot to be desired, but couldn't the il and lo situation be compared to a and an in English, as in a book, but an apple?
Linda

Hi Jackie,

as you know there are more than two definite articles -masculine, and more than two -feminine. (il, lo, l', - masculine singular; la, l',- feminine singular; i, gli, gl', - masculine plural; le, l' - feminine plural). It is not as complex as it may first appear.

'lo' is placed before masculine singular nouns beginning with 's', 'z', 'ps', and 'gn'.

All italian nouns can be classified into gender groups according to their endings. Almost all nouns ending in 'o' are masculine, and almost all ending in 'a' are feminine. There are many exceptions to this rule and I'm afraid you just have to learn them.

For example many nouns can be either mansculine or feminine and these usually end in 'e', such as 'il parente' or 'la parente' (relative), il cantante, la cantante, (singer) etc,. It is difficult to guess the the gender of nouns that do not refer to human beings such as 'il giornale (newspaper), il pane (bread), both masculine but la notte (night), la chiave (key), both feminine. When these nouns are modified by a regular adjective, the gender is seen in the adjective.

I can recommend a very good grammar exercise book to help with all of this and other grammar.

SCHAUM'S OUTLINES - ½ûÂþÌìÌà Grammar - 2nd. Edition. Joseph E. Germano Conrad J. Schmitt. Costs about £10 - £12

good luck

Thanks for that; and the grammar recommendation. I like to understand the grammar in languages; it intrigues me.Jackie

[QUOTE=Ian and Sandra]as you know there are more than two definite articles -masculine, and more than two -feminine. (il, lo, l', - masculine singular; la, l',- feminine singular; i, gli, gl', - masculine plural; le, l' - feminine plural). It is not as complex as it may first appear.
[/QUOTE]

You know, I've never seen the masculine plural gli and the feminine plural apostrophated. For example, I would always write 'gli animali', and not 'gl'animali'. Would it be a dialect use?

The same goes for l'. L'insegnante is teacher (masculine or feminine). Both my ½ûÂþÌìÌà teachers (tutte e due italiane) are ladies, so in referring to them I would say 'le insegnanti' and not 'l'insegnanti'. Both of them have been very clear about the use of apostrophes. Again is this dialect use?

One other point is that you also use gli where the noun begins with an h, ad es l'hotel, gli hotel. Unless anyone knows differently.

I agree with Ian and Sandra that this is not the most complex area of ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ. At one time I thought it would be getting my head round the subjunctive - a tense that we hardly ever use (the best example is when we say 'If I were you' - se io fosse in te). However, even after all these years the direct and indirect object pronouns are a source of bewilderment!!

My ½ûÂþÌìÌà teacher told us that the definite artical is never contracted when the noun following it is plural, so, as Peter says, gli animali, le arancie, etc.

Well we could start something here. Just when you thought you had something cracked!!

My trusty grammar book says, to quote, " L' is placed before all masculine singular nouns beginning with a vowel. - L' is placed before all feminine singular nouns beginning with a vowel. GLI may be contracted to gl' with masculine plural nouns beginning with the vowel 'i'. The plural of l' is le. Le may be contracted to l' with feminine plural; nouns beginning with 'e' "

teniamoci in contatto

The above book agrees with Ian and Sandra, and I used this back in the late 1960s when I was learning ½ûÂþÌìÌà in Florence. i found the book explained things fairly simply and still use it for revision...you may pick one up at a second hand book shop.

I wonder tho' if like all things , the language has evolved since then and certain grammer rules have changed. Anyone know ??

Just a thought ...my neighbour always says ' mia casa '..not 'la mia casa ' .....and 'mia figlia' not' la mia figlia'...she is ½ûÂþÌìÌà by the way !!!!! I'm finding the la mia etc is not used much in Puglia except perhaps for emphasis.

Also ( got me started now !) Alex is going to a teacher in town and they started with the verbs and she introduced him to 'egli,esso-he/it:ella essa-she/it and essi,esse-they....I've never used these in conversation or even heard them used...is there a rule to them.?..I feel this is really confusing him as he is learning for conversation not the written word but as my italian isn't perfect by any means, I don't want to interfere until I'm sure.
Asked another neighbour and she said they aren't used in conversation ....anyone know ?

Hi Alex and Lyn,

Egli (he) is used infreguently but is not obsolete.

Ella (she) and essa (she), are alternative forms of Lei but are rarely used.

Loro (they) has no gender. Essi (they, masc. pl) and Esse (they, fem. pl) are alternative forms of Loro and show gender. They are used when gender must be shown.

All these forms still appear in the latest best ½ûÂþÌìÌà grammars published in Italy (eg Zanichelli's 1999). They do have limited currency; usually formal and literature.

hope this helps

[QUOTE=Ian and Sandra]Hi Alex and Lyn,

Egli (he) is used infreguently but is not obsolete.

Ella (she) and essa (she), are alternative forms of Lei but are rarely used.

Loro (they) has no gender. Essi (they, masc. pl) and Esse (they, fem. pl) are alternative forms of Loro and show gender. They are used when gender must be shown.

All these forms still appear in the latest best ½ûÂþÌìÌà grammars published in Italy (eg Zanichelli's 1999). They do have limited currency; usually formal and literature.

hope this helps[/QUOTE]

Egli is today used sometime in formal conversations or in written formal documents.
More often is used "LUI" as "HE"
i.e. "He is a good teacher" is translated as well as "egli è un buon insegnante" or "lui è un buon insegnante" and the second one is the one used in all days conversation.
You can also translate "è un buon insegnante", without the article, because in italian you don't need to put always the article, when is clear the person who you're talking about.

Is the same for "ella" and "lei", "essi/esse" and "loro".