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Given the costs/time/mess/trouble involved in constructing 'a secondary wall which becomes the "dry" skin' etc, I would have to assume that the water proofing products advertised as having 'amazing moisture repelling capabilities' do not live up to their claims. If they did, surely everyone would use these (far cheaper and easier to use) products?

We have exactly the same problem with our Cantina and are in the middle of rectifying it. It's not simple, and it's not cheap, and no, slopping some gunk on the wall will not cure it. The cure depends very much on the construction and whether or not you have access to the external wall. If the wall is buried and you can't get to the outside of it, fixing the problem is even more difficult because the first principle in tanking the wall is to make sure that water is not getting into the masonry. Any other fix is a second or third best.

So, if you can get access to the outside wall, you need to first remove all the soil down to the foundation, then make good the portion of the wall below ground level. This may involve rendering the wall with sand and cement. Next a special membrane is attached to the wall, this is a comination of an impermeable layer with a membrane that permits water from the soil to passs through, then be drained without coming into contact with the wall. At the foot of the wall, a drain is constructed to take the water away, this may need a sump and pump depending on the layout of the land.

After the material is fixed, it is backfilled, and that should be it for 30 years or so. However the process is a tad technical and should really be done by a competent installer.

If there's no access to the outside wall, a similar process can be performed but on the inside of the wall, the barrier and membrane go on the inside of the wall, the membrane is then plastered over for a finish. Drains need to be supplied internally and it may be sensible to treat the floor in the same way.

Provision may also need to be made for improved ventilation, to prevent the room being subject to condensation as well as penetrating damp.

The above is a simplified description and not a manual for getting the job done.

I've found local builders to be next to useless at dealing with damp. They have a vague idea, but nothing like the experience of British, Scandinavian and German builders at dealing with these problems.

will... all previous advise is correct and the solutions offered are the best way of doing things... you also have to take into consideration when changing things here that there are certain standards involved and to do what you plan legally will invove humidity tests and light level tests and ceilinng height standards... so the following advise is not good advise at all and really should not be followed....

but if you get metal frame work on to the wall... the sort of framing designed to fix plaster board to build in a suspended floor...say wooden again on metal frame work... wood will soak up the water.... and call the place the working kitchen or cantena or whatever it was before ...but put a bed in because sometimes you get tired in the afternoon and its a cool place to sleep... you will then find you have the room you wanted much as any italian family would do ... your problem will be if you ever sell the place and call it anything other than what it was before... and it will most probably suffice and last a good few years and cost you little... the other alternative to plaster board is again to build something on the floor first say a line of bricks or blocks... put in a damp proof membrane and then continue with thermolite blocks.....the important thing is to use metal or membrane to keep the water from soaking into the internal finished walls and floors as much as possable.... as regards rendering the old walls with cement be a bit careful.... if you seal the wall too much and the water cannot get out it will go upwards... you will find you have moved the damp into your above ground accomodation and it will leak out there...

to finally reiterate ...the fact is this will all be illegal and should not be done unless you continue to store stuff in it and use it occaisionally for another purpose... for those that say i am talking out of my proverbial ...backsi... when walking around your italian village you might well notice garage doored areas of houses where double glazed windows have been fitted inside the doors making it all but impossable for a car to be parked inside... mainly because the sofas and or bed are taking up most of the floor space...

John, I swear you are becoming more ½ûÂþÌìÌà by the second (that's not a bad thing :D ) I had often wondered why all the cantina's were double glazed, LOL.
Will, many of the rendering products advertised as moisture removing are strictly for use in areas where the outside has been protected, and you are removing moisture locked in the bricks themselves.

[QUOTE=will](incidentally glad daughter was ok, it was a scarey day not just for those of us in central london but for many thousands like yourselves not being able to contact friends and fam)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the thought, she was very lucky that day, the police tried to load everyone at Euston onto the bus that was blown up. She missed it because her scatterheaded approach to negotiatiing Euston station took long enough that the bus had left by the time she got to the stop.

Anyway back to buildings, have a look here for inspiration:

[url]http://www.safeguardchem.com/[/url]
[url]http://www.safeguardchem.com/Tanking/CDM.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.hobuk.co.uk/acatalog/Oldroyd_Xv_Cavity_Drainage_Membrane_System.html[/url]
[url]http://www.deltamembranes.com/[/url]

There are others, but the main suppliers of damp proofing systems use either Oldroyd or Delta membranes. The membrane itself is cheap(ish) so you may be able to DIY. See the Safeguard site for downloadable instruction manuals.

Steve

Many thanks for the links to these damp-proofing sites. The solution to my damp problems are here.

Brian

You're welcome Brian, best of luck with it. We got involved in damp proofing because of the laughable quotes we had from builders. About EUR 90,000 to damp proof the cantina and a couple of other rooms. The excuse given was that no one in central Italy can do this work and it needs specialists from "the north".

Sadly when we talked to the specialists they knew less than we did. The two firms recommended simply wanted to bitumen coat the wall then build a new internal cavity. Bitumen is a bad idea it breaks down when exposes to soil acids. An internal cavity as we discussed earlier isn't a full solution.

I'm really tempted to set up a damp proofing company myself, but I don't know how much work we would get.

[QUOTE=lotaresco]I'm really tempted to set up a damp proofing company myself, but I don't know how much work we would get.[/QUOTE]

Even focussing just on the expat market, there are many locations in Italy where you could be sure of getting far more work than you can handle.

There is certainly no shortage of properties with damp problems in Italy, and as long as they continue to be snapped up by Brits and Germans etc, you'd have an excellent business.

Your main pitfall is that if you do a very good job, you've lost your customer for the next 30 years!

some people might well believe i have had a brainstorm but i do find the supeficial pomposity of certain vistors to this country about the craftsmen and tradesmen and the following comments to his post condescending crap

despite my propensity to dots the quotes offered as examples for work from someone that seems to know half the architects in italy and provides advise on seemingly every subject... notwithstanding english grammar/spelling... and any other subject...from chemicals chain reactions in the meditteranean sea and now of all things damp proofing seem to me of martian preportions.... and if if knew as many people in the building industry i would have expected quotes of a bit less

to get of the arguing part and maybe to provide alterantive solutions to peopel arriving here with unfounded fears of italian tradesmen their knowledge and their pricing of work i have this to offer....

we have a damp wall.... our local italian builder... a simple chap... born and bred in abruzzo and despite his italian blood seemingly quite capable had just attended an updating course in the latest chemical coatings that can be applied to walls in the fight against damp... which despite the brit term which i hate applies to many buying here but in general foreigners who buy properties that most sensible italians walk away from

...needless to say his quotes for work were far less than the amounts quoted previously.... the work when done will be done by builders from abruzzo... in fact from the village... and they seem to have heard of all the latest processes... depite not having internet access... and have not even mentioned builders from outside the village let alone the region

admittedley most of the older builders here have in the past worked in switzerland and they will also laugh at some of the less than efficient practices of some italian builders....

but if you take a step back and look at the place you are coming you might well notice cities towns and villages full of most probably the most aincient buildings in europe... and most probably apart from france some of the most interesting and well crafted modern architecture... how have they managed this in the past without those pompous brits that seem to think they can come here and seemingly tar all with the same brush in an effort to start some new private enterprise.... i thought marketing ones skills was prohibited on the forum........

i have seen postings on this same forum accusing people who give advise based on knowledge of trying to channel bussiness or marketing some idea as their only reason to post a reply......

if you need help here try italian first.... they have lived here longer... built the buildings originally and despite some peoples assertions have ready access to all latest systems......... my arguement would be the latest chemical treatments are unproven... will likely not work long term or move the problem anyway ..........and your best bet is to return to older skills and basic products to solve a problem generally caused by peoples use of cement etc on walls that were never intended to see a modern product anywhere near them

John, is there any reason in particular that you feel impelled to repeatedly make personal attacks?

FWIW, and no doubt you'll have another fit and attack me for what I'm about to say, I have experience in all the areas that you mention. I have formal qualifications in Biology, Computing and Building. At present I'm also attending agricultural college. As to builders and damp proofing, I'm sorry but the knowledge among ½ûÂþÌìÌà builders of modern techniques in damp proofing is apalling to non-existent. All of the builders that I had to quote for work seemed to consider that the solution was either to coat the exterior wall with bitumen or hydrosilicone or to costruct an interior wall over the damp.

The latter course of action does absolutely nothing to cure the problem and eventualy the damp will reappear on the new wall. The second is of limited success and really needs attention to drainage. Bitumen should never be used in contact with soil, the soil acids destroy the bitumen rapidly.

Obviously I'm sorry that my education and experience causes you such distress. I'm also sorry to have to inform you that since I've been living in Italy since 1992, I rather consider myself to no longer be a visitor to Italy. How long have you been here?

I get a private message about heated debates and advice that I should ask people to calm down and guess what... it is lotaresco and adriatica at it again :D

Dears please calm down (...it's only a forum). In the future if either of you is annoyed with any of the other's post send each other a private message. This way threads are kept on topic.

I will have to edit or delete such posts in the future since as the forums grow bigger we need to keep things on topic to help newcomers.

Thanks!