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You can read the article on

[url]http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=648726[/url]

It's a pity that most journalists can only conceive of Italy in terms of two polar-opposite cliches; 'La dolce vita' on the one hand and its beaurocratic lassitude, bad drivers and nepotism on the other.
The author of the article may have a point that economically and politically Italy is stagnating, however he doesn't mention the many virtues of the country that make the all-important quality-of-life factor here so high: Amazing landscapes and architecture, fabulous food, a good health-care system, the climate and, most of all spontaneous, liberal-minded and egrarious people who emphatically do NOT subscribe to Maragaret Thatcher's misconception that 'there is no such thing as society'. Most of these qualities are so firmly entranched in the �������� character that even Berlusconi, in his hopefully short remaining time in power won't do too much lasting damage to them.
I like it here, and if you're in the lucky position of being able to live on a pension or on money released from the boom in UK house prices, you'll never look back.

Cue Adriatica.....

The article reads pretty grim. I do wonder though if the solution there is not the same as the solution proposed in South Africa: encourage entrepreneurs. Italy is already a country of small enterprise - that is the one thing that makes it stand out from the rest of Europe, where multinationals run the economy. Maybe part of the solution to kickstarting economic growth is to create new markets/new products and foster the small businessman to do the work.

I have no way of knowing if the article is really true or not, but I suspect there is at least a grain of truth in it. Even so, I'm not sure how much effect it might have on anyone moving to Italy on an adequate UK based pension. I say adequate because there are many people here who do not have pensions that would fund a reasonable life here in the UK. I find our bit of Italy to be cheaper than here in London, but I suspect that a fair comparison with an equivalent place in the UK might narrow the gap considerably.

One thing I would say is that however much I like Italy, its landscape, food, the people I've met etc. I do think British culture is more vibrant and that may be a function of there being more opportunities here for new ideas to see the light of day.

I agree with you Sano. It's no coincidence that all of the whingeing ��������s in the article are ones who have never escaped the gravitational pull of instutionalised jobs.
I helped to train a bright young Roman intern to be a television director a few years ago and he left to become a trainee bus driver because it was more secure. I'm happy to say he soon came back though.

you will find i think if you talk to italians much of what is writen here is representative of a general feeling of digust and hopelessness....

in general and this is what the neighbours say ... all of whom are italian.... work is hard to come by...salaries are low and yes you are scared of the bosses... when asked about the unions here.... they are only represented in the bigger companies but more especially public services... they have no recourse and can be sacked very easily...

... to get a job requires you to know someone to reccomend you... that is how it works..from factory floor to teaching... to pass an exam requires the same level of knowledge ... ie make sure you know someone who will let you pass....

this runs all thru ... and is pretty much why the malaise is becoming more apparent now the italian economy is supposed to compete in europe... they cooked the books to get in... to the euro zone and now that sickness is being shown as fact..... the accountants looking at the books are no longer government officials from italy scared of saying something truthful... its brussels beauracrats

... so yes the life is good here for some... especially those in the know... but the majority feel worse off now than ever before... more fed up with how the system works but powerless to do anything about it.....

... the sad thing is that there are lots of bright people here with immense capacity to do things well ... the system protects those that know how to do things from ever being allowed and gives the work, the degrees and the elections only to those that know someone....

... and if you want to protest this... well they are all scared... if you argue say with any official body you can easily be sued... not that they want to win the case but they will tie you up in litigation for years... until the case is out of date.... and you have run out of money ... so no one does .. apart from that the judiciary are also part of the system that protects the "reccomendation" way of getting a job or career....

but no it will not crumble... it will just carry on....

... for those of you looking for houses and trying to buy them you will have reached the tip of the iceberg as to rediculousness and protected job systems.... your estate agent will have his job because of who he knew.. not his capacity...the geometra... is maybe lucky he would have done his work in school where you can still pass an exam on knowledge... the notary... well the university system is in general regarded as the same as work and the reccomendation will play a big part....

small enterprise sytems.... to do this in italy you have to be qualified.... you pay for a course... and then have to take an exam...usually via the chamber of commerce... the exam is fixed to allow those that already know someone to pass... or if they think they have enough small shops or whatever and those owners are part of the chamber... nobody will pass...those that have thought up an idea and want to progress are weeded out at this stage

for those of you not retiring to the rural idyll ... it might well be a word of warning that maybe the children will not have a future here.... for young children the place is a heaven....but what about when they do grow up....

people have commented here on knowing someone in british rail ... or the friend of the boss.... they really have not a lot of idea... it goes everywhere... from doctors and good hospital treatment to getting a planning permission agreed....

the hospital system here has as many bad reports in italian news and tv as english ones... and is also going majorly bankrupt... medicine costs here are one of the crippling over costs as doctors subscribe drugs especially antibiotics for everything.... scenes are shown of patients in corridors on beds waiting for hours... flu problems over winter cause hospitals too cancel operations from being overcrowded...

from roads built to sub standard to infant schools collapsing on their own children...... becuse the contarcts have been done on reccomendation

but would i move and do i feel these problems...

well no.. i like it here.. my wife.. italian doesnt like it as much as i do... she gets angry with the stupidity of a system based on stupidity rather than merit... but she likes the fact our son is free to run around without fear...
...the problems.. well yes i do feel them to a degree.. every time i payed for overpriced gas and electricity... car insurance not worth th paper it is printed on... and listening to neighbours .. young and old who suffer from how things are and have little opportunity to change anything...

we are lucky if i dont like it i can leave... with my family and try somewhere different ... they often feel trapped by it all .... maybe have never travelled... could it be the time is coming again where there will be another mass exodous of young italians ... maybe thats why english schools are so popular here... it will allow them to leave....

so i made my choice and am happy with it ... but then before i came i knew the place and had never had the dream view that often seems more apparent here on the forum than the reallity of living and working in italy

as for berlusconi.... he is trying to liberalise the whole system... like him or not... it happens i do not... but he is the first italian leader in a long time with a majority and he did try to get the unions in public services stopped... but they have just won a pay rise of over 5% ... there are strikes here every month ... he has tried to get the energy service industry to compete and there is a thought that in two years time they will no longer be monopolies...he has tried to get the banks to be competative... but with little success... at the moment he is running scared.. he has had several close calls in parliament and has lost a lot of power...he had an ambition to pull italy forward but he has run out of steam.... the alternative Prodi is most probably the one thing if you are planning to move to italy to be deeply afraid of...

[QUOTE=Marc]
I like it here, and if you're in the lucky position of being able to live on a pension or on money released from the boom in UK house prices, you'll never look back.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly - if you have money from the UK you can live well here. If you have to earn your money here in Italy then that's a different story. I agree encouraging entrepreneurs is a good idea but not everyone has the skills or desire to embark on self-motivated self-employed projects. And just because you don't have these skills should you be denied the right to work hard for decent pay and conditions?

I know of someone in Calabria who has recently started a job delivering gas canisters. He was promised a monthly salary of 900 euros, all contributions, taxes etc paid and paid holidays for working roughly 40hours a week. So far he is now working 11 hours a day, 6 days a week, he is getting paid by the day which still comes to roughly 900 euros per month but he isn't getting any paid holidays etc and is only being declared to the state for 2 weeks in the month therefore affecting his pension contribuitions. They can get away with it because unemployment is high, he can't easily find another job and they'll easily get someone to replace him if he leaves. And he only got the job in the first place cos of someone he knows.

The article mentions a man still living at home with his mother - I was always rather condescending about the many ��������s who still live with their families well into their 30s and 40s. Until I had to find a job here myself. My salary is so low that I could not afford to live on my own. It's not just a case of not having much money but we worked out that I couldn't even cover the basic bills of maintaining a small flat. Fortunately I have a very kind partner who supports me. :D

I too like it here but I'm not immune to all the problems and appreciate the good things about the UK that a lot of people seem to like criticising on this forum. I moved here for a person not the country so maybe I'm the one that's biased the other way! ;)

Reminds me of the passages in Annie Hawes book in which she's accompanying an �������� girl to Rome for some exams. The girl has with her specially published cheats which she intends to take into the exam and is astonished that Annie should be disturbed by this.

Couldn't resist adding that all these crib sheets are openly displayed in bookshops with tempting displays in front of the cash desk! It is a different cultural dimension.

“Failure is a better teacher than success, but she seldom finds an apple on her desk”. Anon

Sadly, this is not the only newspaper report to attack Italy. The Economist ran an article in May called: “The real sick man of Europe”. It too, made pretty grim reading.

These articles are all too quick to criticise Italy’s poor economic performance. They are all too quick in suggesting that those in power have got it wrong or that the common reasons for the malaise stem from fraud and corruption. There may be an element of truth in this but in essence, I believe these articles seem to be missing the point. There are far too many articles of this kind and the last thing we need is another one of those.

Italy has been there before. You only need to look at what happened during the mid 1920’s to see that the �������� economy was in serious trouble. The newspapers today are not telling us anything new

I agree that small enterprise is a vitally important component of the complex economic machine. The economy is essentially the vehicle that allows us to provide for our everyday needs and wants. By this line of reasoning, business performs an important service to society. Small enterprise enables our respective economies satisfy these basic needs and wants. Yet, despite the rhetoric, the reality is that small enterprise in Italy continues to be hampered by excessive start up costs, taxation and bureaucracy. No surprises here!

John depicts a somewhat sceptical, albeit true picture of the darker side of Italy. But that is part and parcel of everyday life here in Italy. Again, if you look at what happened in Italy during the Middle Ages for example, you can see that power, bribery, corruption and nepotism were, among other things, characteristic elements of society during those turbulent times. Things today are not as bleak as they may seem. Just different! You just have to learn to adapt (the same applies anywhere you go) and to set your expectations realistically. Don’t come to Italy expecting the system to be the same as it is back home.

These newspaper articles do, however, raise some fundamental questions. Yet in many cases they (and will continue to) remain unanswered. Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that �������� society (all societies for that matter) is complicated by an array of competing models embodying different assumptions about the objectives it seeks. If so, is it any wonder that answers to such questions continue to prove elusive to the many politicians, industry leaders and spiritual leaders who influence our lives? Is it any wonder that these people seem incapable of taking the correct remedial action?

The truth, however disagreeable, has to be faced at some point and only by being fully aware of the true picture can the appropriate steps be taken towards creating a better economic base for a country that has a lot to offer the world.

"Italy has been there before. You only need to look at what happened during the mid 1920’s to see that the �������� economy was in serious trouble."

Yes, and look what happened then!

Yes, and look what happened then!

The situation was unquestionably explosive but in fairness, however, the effects of the 1929 Wall Street Crash and ensuing Great Depression also didn’t help.

Interestingly, notwithstanding the undeniable fact that Italy was hit hard by this crisis, by 1938 �������� production and industrial productivity was at it’s highest since 1913, just slightly ahead of France, Germany, Britain and America. By 1939 industrial production had increased even further, although wages fell compared to those in France and Britain. To offset this government introduced a series of initiatives and benefits so I guess fascist economic policy had achieved some level of success.

Interesting times ahead!