½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

we are considering renovating a house in the Appuane but haven't found anything suitable yet. You may found there are a thousand rules forbidding you to do various jobs yourself but in practice it may be possible to do it all yourself - unless you need a new roof when the commune will probably pay an interest.
The only DIY store I know is called Bricco but not as comprehensively stocked as B&Q/Depot - otherwise you will have to go to the various trade specific builders merchants.

good luck
sdoj

Thanks for the store tip.There certainly doesn't seem to be the range of 'DIY' stores that we have here and very little in the way of on-line shopping which would be so useful when planning from the UK but I'm slowly building a small list at the moment so hopefully I can post it here before long for anyone else looking to take this route.
Know what you mean about building regs...luckily most of the required work is internal and I am lucky enough to have some family in the nearby town to help me get some works checked over but the commune are very fond of their building regs!
Thanks again and good luck with the property search.
Just out of interest what 'level' of property are you looking to buy, in terms of condition?

Mark

If money were no object we would buy a tumble down ruin and restore it entirely adding a mansard level under a new roof but the cost seems prohibitive and we will probably buy a restored, partly restored or badly restored house and do limited works ourselves.
In what state is your place?

SDOJ

We have been DIYing a rural property for several years now, including rewiring, plumbing and general building. However recently we have moved on to a new phase, building an extension (or rather converting a garage and pig sty into a lounge, a cantina intoa kitchen and shower room and a magazino into a bedroom with ensuite bathroom.) For this work we have engaged the services of an architect and a local builder. Although I'm competent to do the work, wrestling with bureaucracy over the scale of works has caused me to give in.

Also a good local builder actually charges less per hour than I do so it's cost effective to use him.

As to DIY stores there is Obi and Castorama but we tend to use the same stores as the prfessionals, Big Mat for building materials, Domoclima our local plumbers merchants for pulmbing, the Ferramenta for assorted DIY stuff and our local paint shop DiMarcolor for paint in large quantities.

We're not very far away from Ikeav(about an hour's drive) so the small kitchen in the house was done from Ikea.

My next DIY projects are solar water heating, a solar thermal store and a windmill/solar panels to provide electricity for lighting.

I would be a bit scared of a full restore/partial rebuild partly for the attention of the commune that it would attract but mainly for my lack of structural building skills!! Thankfully the building I'm looking at is fairly sound. Some repointing and a complete re-plaster internally but otherwise dry and fully roofed. All the windows are falling out, it is unplumbed and unwired and requires a bathroom but otherwise,despite not being occupied for decades (but was used occaisionally for livestock and tools) it's not in bad nick. I don't know whether I can post jpegs here but if I can I'll put a couple up.

Is cost your main reason for trying to do as much yourselves as possible? Sometimes it seems (via the usual TV programmes etc) that anyone attempting this kind of project must be borderline super-tax bracket but I must admit to looking forward to seeing it stand or fall on my own meagre efforts!

That sounds like a very big but exciting project - especially for those of us used to the dust-free environment of the I.T. industry!
I've been trying to work out what to put in/do with the old cattle-shed which forms part of the ground floor - it has all the original stone troughs that I want to try and retain while making them useful. Favourite option at the moment is to turn it into my recording studio!

We still have the old stalls on the ground floor including the cattle troughs. Beware these can harbour rats and ½ûÂþÌìÌà rats appear to be cross-bred with mangy, starved lions. We tried several humane ways of getting rid of them but all failed so we fell back on the ½ûÂþÌìÌà use of "rat glue". Extremely inhumane but 100% effective.

We've thought long an hard about the cattle troughs, but they have to go. So we shall recycle the bricks and the large timber pole that was used to secure the animals by a nose ring and turn the stalls into a "pluriuso" and a kitchen.

To save cash, we shall knock out the stalls ourselves.

I have been told about a Castorama in N. Abruzzo, they have a website, can supply most of what you need, I beleive they are part of the Kingfisher (B&Q) group, the site will also give you a map and route plan to your nearest store.
[url]http://www.castorama.it/cataloghi_castorama/[/url]
Good Luck.

Apologies for the late reply - been away (but not in Italy, unfortunately).Thanks for the Castorama link - this seems to be just the type of place I'm looking for. Thanks again.

Have managed to avoid the rats so far but if you have any tips on dealing with Pterodactyl-sized wasps living in the gaps in old stone walls I'm all ears!
I've been coming to same conclusion that recycling might be a more practical solution than conversion for the cattle shed - just seems a bit of a shame to lose such a vital part of the original building. I suppose, if one wanted to be [I]really[/I] radical, you could always keep animals in it!

This is very encourging as I intend to complete as much work as possible myself. One of my concerns is relating to Certfication / Regulations, in the UK it is now required to have a 'Part 13' certified electriction complete all works.

Is it possbile to complete the work myself without certification ? or could I get an electriction to certify the work after I have completed it ?

I am interested in all the comments on this subject. I understand there are various regulations preventing you from carrying out many jobs. What are the yes you can, and no you can't in brief. Or can you carry out many of the jobs then get a certified tradesman to sign off the ticket, ie electrics, gas, plumbing etc. Or is it is more of you can just do the labouring. The only job my husband couldn't do is roofing and plastering (as he can only manage rustic plastering!!)

I've been looking at this for a while and it seems like the two big issues are building regs and information on ½ûÂþÌìÌà standards (eg: wiring and plumbing conventions). I've sourced a few ½ûÂþÌìÌà DIY books for details of conventions, am writing to ENEL to try and find out info on regs and asking family and friends in Italy for tips.

I'll post anything I discover.

We too are doing most (all?) of the work ourselves and it seems like there are two different sets of rules depending on if you have a 'project' submitted and approved at the comune.

If you don't then there is more scope for just 'getting on' with things so long as you aren't doing things like making new wall openings or converting animal stalls (both of which need permission). It also seems to depend on how strict your comune is whether they will take huge objection to this.

If you do have a 'project' then the project must have a registered builder on it and no work can take place unless that builder is ONSITE. The only things you can legally do yourself is to clear the land and the site/house. I only know this because we know someone who is being prosecuted for working on his house without the builder being onsite. The police took photographs of him so they take it quite seriously. The builder's insurance covers all workers so he has to agree that you can work on your own house because if you have an accident the police will investigate and persue his insurance which means a huge hike in premiums for him next year.

Sorry to sound scary but those are the facts as we know them. This being Italy, there are always those who just ignore all that and do it anyway and maybe they are fine - who knows?

The third option is to register yourself as a builder, pay all the insurances etc and then put your own name on the project as the contractor. It seems you can then work on your own house. We are looking into this at the moment. I can keep you updated when we find out more.

A project has to be signed off at the end by (as I understand it) the builder, the geometra, the electrician & the plumber so unless you know willing ones that would put their name to work they didn't do, it would be tough to do this yourself. We will be using ½ûÂþÌìÌà plumbers & electricians.

Thanks Penny, Thats is useful to know.

Our budget just isn't going to stretch to getting in tradesmen for all works. The property we are looking at is in extremly good condition (southern Piemonte) and with the types of work we are likely to undertake (new internal walls, re-wiring etc) we may be able to complete these elements before getting into the full project stage which will require a Geometra/tradesman as this will involve some structural work.

Hi Penny,
that's very helpful,thank you.Without wanting to take advantage could you say what types of work you've carried out yourself without the 'project' status. Specifically would internal plumbing and wiring (from the consumer unit onwards) be considered as such a project in the absence of any structural work?
Thanks again.

Mmmmmm this is getting intresting - I am going over with a mate of mine who is a builder over here in blight in a couple of weeks to do some work on out property.

We plan to dig out around the house and install storm drains , rerender both the internal and external walls to eliminate a a couple of damp problems.

Does anyone see this being an issue ?

verything you do with wiring etc... is subject to regulation... even re rendering if you live in a historical area can be a problem... erecting scaffold or even working off it.... it very much depends how you get on with all your neighbours... essentially if there is a builder clse by that wonders how and why you are doing this work you could easily be investigated...

there seems to be rules for everything and if you do upset anyone then the penalties for not knowing these rules are going to be high... if you try and find out the rules and ask say a geometra you can be back at stage one because then he will want to do the work....

italy is not a diy country.. jobs are protected and rules and regulations try and make it the rule that you employ someone

not long ago you had to use a notary to buy a car... there are lots of different agencies for everything you do ... essentially because the rules and regulations are so complicated most people would use them....

hence comments about ici and such... its just easier to usea bookeeper...

this country is very much not like spain...even france or the uk.... no electrician or plumber is going to happily sign off work he hasnt done... and any building work unless of the decorative nature is best checked out...
even removing plaster can make a stable house unstable they will tell you and might require planning permission... removing internal plaster could add substantial and critical weight to a floor which hasnt been designed to carry or is not strong enough to bear the extra weight.... these are arguements i have heard of and right or wrong they can apply to your work...

some villages and small towns also have bye laws about the amount of dust and noise and the times you can make it... needless to say the bigger towns have even more complicated rules... there is also the problem of disposing of old material

it jus can go on and on.... get an italian proffesional or buy a ready to live in house .. is most probably the best advice

John Thanks - the house was meant to be "Ready to live" - sadly the survey was about as much use as.....

Tried to get an ½ûÂþÌìÌà builder but they either think damp is not a problem or do not give a qoute for one particular area because the issue could be one of three things - even had one who was quoting for doing work that had not be requested

Finally lost patience and opted for DIY ... funny though we have had no problems with anyone about renting a JCB for a couple of days without ad river and in obtaining the building materials

Further to this whole issue I rang a cousin in Italy yesterday who used to work for the commune some years ago (and is now rather old) and asked him to clarify the rules regarding, in particular, rewiring and plumbing. His response (and obviousy this is strictly based on one person's view) was that any internal works such as I am planning are not bound by regulations. This may be due to the fact that neither would be a new installation (old wiring and plumbing does exist in the house albeit in an extreme state of decay) or that it is a rural property set in its own land or that my cousin, knowing the local commune, does not believe it to be an issue in this case. In other words it is by no means authoritative but might give a hint. I shall try and verify this with other family members.

my neighbour is a builder who also works for the local comune, he's found me a geometer that actually told me which works can be done DIY.

For instance Air Con Unit, to fit 4 unit distance between internal & external units max lenght 1.5 m cost 1500 euro :eek:

spoke to my neighbour all the donkey work i can DIY, chase the walls out, drill holes, lay trunking.

Now the cost drops down to under 500 euro :D

however i'm having a poject done for the balcony, can't even move the rubble on that job.

i have alot of family living in italy they all do DIY, but it's all about common sense, yes put in a ring main if you know what you are doing, but get an electricial to check it and then connect it to consumer unit,
you wouldn't start knocking holes for doorways & windows in britain without checking with professionals ?

Hi John, many thanks for your comments here and the reality check!
I noticed on an earlier post elsewhere on the forum that you had mentioned pointing and rendering of stone and rubble walls with lime putty. I know this is used extensively in stone buildings here in the British Isles largely due to its 'breathability' and its hydraulic qualities but this is the first time I have seen it mentioned in relation to Italy (although assumed that it would be used in older buildings). Were you able to source lime based products easily in Italy or do you need to find a specialist supplier as we would do here?
Thanks again.
Mark
For anyone else investigating this issue I have found these links helpful in understanding concepts and techniques:
[url]http://www.northwilts.gov.uk/repointing_-2.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.oldhousestore.co.uk/index_fs.shtml/1KTX6VP-6N6[/url]

they are related to buildings here in the UK but hopefully should be of some help for restoration elsewhere.

i get the lime based materials at my local building suppliers.... you can buy white hydrated lime and mix it .... you get get an antiquated one which turns out a soft pink... or you get get a malta for restructuring which is a colored lime based mix... you can choose from a color chart of about 20 slightly off white colors.... if you use this as a render it also negates the need to paint.... the last two work out at around e10 per bag 25 kg... the first one is about e3 0r e 4... but you have to mix it yourself
some builders add a bit of white cement to the pinkish antiquated one ... but i think this sort of is more a matter of choice over the color...
.. i think if you use any of the bigger builders merchants you will be able to source it as all the products i have used have been made in italy and no one seems surprised i am using them...
.. as for matters of diy ... i agree there is nothing impossible... providing you have time money and know how.... but anyone qualified to do work outside of italy will find their qualification means little here ... the term ring main to me suggests english work ... where you run a circuit around one floor and wire all the plugs in off one set of wiring...dropping in sockets where required... the ring... however here they do it differently and to my mind not quite as easy... each socket is wired in independently .... masses of wire running back to fuse boxes... much like their central heating systems... a huge grid of pipe work.... but its the way of things here....
you can have electric plugs in bathrooms...but they have to be a certain distance from the bath... and how about the emergency bells that have to be installed in bathrooms...
... so when i say best to check things i am trying to give an honest piece of advise about it all being very complicated.... but then you have a choice... and what you do within your own four walls may well be up to you... especially if you live in an isolated house....

there is a danger though when you do not know a place that well... much as in england.. italians really being not much different... that you can upset this or that busy body... who checks with the commune to see what you are up to....and then if you have done something un wittingly beyond the scope of what is allowed then you are in trouble.... believe me it happens a lot here...

as i have said just be careful about what and how you do things... and try to not upset any neighbours... if you can get a local builder in to help on his spare time you can often be protected from some of the nastier elements of rural busybodies.... pick up a lot of how they do things .. and he will generally know electricians and plumbers that ill work with him and you too... as mentioned before... costs can be more than halved this way... and you get to save money.. learn the italian way of building and have the satisfaction of doing all the hard graft

also.... and back to lime again... there is a certain element of structural stability involved and should be taken into consideration...especially when restoring houses of a caliber say which have been neglected for a while.... if rain has got into the walls and the earth has been washed out a consideration must be that the stability and integrity of the walls might well require the strenght of a cement based render to hold the walls together... especially if you happen to be installing a new roof... the extra weight of the roof on old sometimes crumbling walls will require a careful survey of their strenght and capacity... it just isnt as simple as it looks sometimes and thats why again my advice is to get things checked by someone that has a good knowledge of all the problems that might be involved... and in a sense why someone just redoing their walls internally or externally might well find that the simple job can turn into something not quite so simple... building standards here are required to be high... mainly because of earth movement problems.... and if you ever come to sell the house all work or changes will be looked at

When our house was repointed my husband & the builders cleaned out as much of the old stuff as possible, deep holes were filled with cement (cheaper than marborite) and then the walls were sprayed with water. The walls have to be damp, not soaking and even when the marborite was in place we had to make sure it did not dry out too quickly so had to continue with the spraying every daylight hour or so for the next 24 hours. As the marborite began to set it was wiped with a black abrasive plastic material ('feltro', bought from the builders merchants) similar to the rough green stuff you can use to clean saucepans (sorry, can't think of the name) to get the correct surface finish and to clean the surrounding stones. Although they have the colour charts, we found they were not particularly accurate so would advise you either ask what is the normal colour for the area or just buy one bag to do a colour check. We initially chose one of the pinks as on the chart it looked very pale and attractive, in reality it was awful so went for the local norm, much better! Good luck.
Anne2

[QUOTE=markf]Hi Penny,
that's very helpful,thank you.Without wanting to take advantage could you say what types of work you've carried out yourself without the 'project' status. Specifically would internal plumbing and wiring (from the consumer unit onwards) be considered as such a project in the absence of any structural work?
Thanks again.[/QUOTE]
It is not the type of work you are doing that makes something a 'project' but whether you have applied for a restoration permission at the comune.

It seems to me just as someone else said that anything that is existing will not need permission but anything new (i.e. not already there) will. Obviously that is a huge over simplification!

We have a project so fall under all the rules :-)

Will, you may well know of this already but if not there is a very useful little book dedicated to matters of lime that you may want to read

Stone Buildings: Conservations, Restoration, History by Pat McAfee
Lime in Building - a Practical Guide [Paperback] by Schofield, Jane

I picked up both from Amazon and have really helped me understand some of the issues.

the malta i mention is the marborite
as has been mentioned.. preperation is the secret.... remove all the waste and dust.... and then the day before you start wash the walls with a hose...
... spring and autumn are the best times to do it .... but can be done in summer...

the drying process as has been said is the problem....

the top of the walls will always dry quicker... the bottom half takes longer because it always is damper.... the last couple of feet of the wall can sometimes takes weeks to dry out

to apply it use a mechanical mixer... not a cement mixer but the ones like a paint mixer ..only bigger.... and mix it up quite wet... if you are pointing brickwork type joints then wet is best... larger holes a bit dryer but fill them gradually...ie ... go round first and fill them a bit and let it dry before putting in more....

if you do fill holes with cement first you will in a sense be going back to the original problem... cement has no flexability or breathing capabilities and eventually as the wall moves with heat and cold will crack again...... will also not help if you are trying to solve a damp problem.... if you have lots of big holes and want to fill them first buy lime and mix with sand and use that to fill

the other thing is dont worry about pointing as you would with bricks... the stuff comes off easily .... the easiest way is a wire brush and you have to work out for yourself when to start brushing.... but on a warm day maybe after a couple of hours...if the brush clogs then you have started too soon...but keep checking because if it does get too dry it is much hareder work... as you brush have a bit of the mix ready to fill in any holes you have missed... the brushing also breaks the outside crust and gives a much rougher finish and also allow the mix to dry more evenly within the wall reducing the drying/cracking problem a bit

in france the older artisan builders hated the wire brush method and insist you use the pointing trowel.... it is much slower but they are right in a way...the abrasive method leaves a few unnatural lines... the trowel method doesnt... you can also scrape the smallest little corners with a trowel and when you are pressing down with the trowel you also refix any of the looser areas then might be coming out....

so i use both trowel and brush... this time of year i start pointing at five in the morning and am finsihed by eight... after that you keep an eye on things and start the brushing process as required

if you are doing a whole house... obviously work out the hot and cool sides and do it in patches at different times of the day...

Just a quick update on registering as a builder. This is what we have been told it costs:

Partita IVA - zero
INAIL - 5-600 Euros a year
INPS - approx 500 Euros 1/4ly
Camera Commerico - 80 Euros a year

Commercialista to make sure you stay within the law and take care of all of your tax documentation - 500 Euros annually

Commericalista fee for setting up - 300 Euros

It is a very quick process.

Just for those intrested - Last month we went out to italy to complete the first stage of renovation on our house.

When we arrived the local builder was working two houses away and after many comments on this thread i must admit that I feared the worst.

We got cracking on with the project stripping off the render from the outside wall and pinning the crack on the roadside. There was much intrest in what we were doing especially when our lorry load of goods arrived - in advance of the order for the local guy :D who not amused that the Brits had got there stuff first.

But for those with fears - the local biulder walked our site, asked what material we were using gave advise where he thought we were not on the ball, lent us tools when ours were not up to it and on the last day invited us all out for a beer

No aminosity, no trouble, just a good week cracking on getting the job done and making new friends - his only concern with the entire project was that we did not take lunch - which he found most conserting - every day telling us to stop and eat when they were on there way to lunch, or reminding us that we had had a proper lunch when they were packing up tools and we were still cracking on, though he did understand that with our limited time we could not follow ½ûÂþÌìÌà eating rules - but the concern for our health was there

Happy DIY ing - we will be back next year to begin work on the garden !!!!!

[QUOTE=AndyH]This is very encourging as I intend to complete as much work as possible myself. One of my concerns is relating to Certfication / Regulations, in the UK it is now required to have a 'Part 13' certified electriction complete all works.

Is it possbile to complete the work myself without certification ? or could I get an electriction to certify the work after I have completed it ?[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately not,the reason being that the certification required in italy from the electrician and the plumber are both PENAL declarations in other words for terrible errors they could theoreticaly go to prison thats why they'd never sign off someone elses work.Without certification the house could never be declared habitable and used as a dwelling or house rental...This is a serious matter and the relevant laws have been in place here for some time now.

[QUOTE=Wol]Just a quick update on registering as a builder. This is what we have been told it costs:

Partita IVA - zero
INAIL - 5-600 Euros a year
INPS - approx 500 Euros 1/4ly
Camera Commerico - 80 Euros a year

Commercialista to make sure you stay within the law and take care of all of your tax documentation - 500 Euros annually

Commericalista fee for setting up - 300 Euros

It is a very quick process.[/QUOTE]

Hello....has anyone any experience of this method of allowing yourself to do much of the work on your property - ie to register as a builder yourself and then nominate yourself head builder. Also will you to have to prove your building pedigree, through qualifications or suchlike, and would you still need to get an electrician/plumber to sign off on these aspects of the work, or could you then do this yourself. My Father in Law is an electrician and plumber in England, and we really want to find away to do it ourselves! Also would only pay the insurances etc whilst you are working on the project? Any info on all of this would be fantastic. Cheers.

Do you have problems with roofing? Looking for quality roofing? [URL=http://northeastunion.com]roofing philadelphia[/URL] may help you

iv boat a little villa south of rome and im been doing alot of the work my self whilst hiring someone and working with them to cut the cost - i dont know much about how teh insurance works in Italy any one - [url]http://www.click-finance-uk.co.uk/homeinsurance.html[/url]

We are planning to do a lot of the work on our house in Abruzzo ourselves.Partly as we are on a tight budget partly because we want to ensure that a high standard of work results. Our house dates to 1700 and recently some cement of a dark grey coulr has been slapped onto the outside wall totally destroying the appearance of the old building which once was a church.We've seen some terrible work carried out by cowboys with no sympathy for old buildings.In the uk and Italy!

As keen gardeners we will want to do some landscaping to our very overgrown 3,000 sq meters some of which is registered as a vineyard.Will we be able to build walls/plant hedges without asking the commune or neighbours who do not live in the house but in one in the village?

i would say your first thing to clear up that the house/church is actually registered as a house.... and can be inhabited....

once that s cleared up and you are sure of its status then i think that you will find cement is often slapped on in this way to hold the building together... if you see lots of yellow staining on the wall it means that the earth which was used to build the wall has been washed out and that they are unstable....

two solutions ...demolish the whole place or render with cement as pointing or solely plastering will still leave the walls in an unstble condition ..... these are the worse two options

however if you have a proper survey of the place they will soon tell you if the structure is sound ... a good engineer/geometra.. can do this....

much as in england you cannot change agricultural registered land to garden without permission.... however as it sound s like you have your work cut out on the house anyway it might well be you will not be attempting this for a while.....

i would say always to check with the commune in any planned changes.... sometimes it just requires filling in a form with no cost which is solely stating that you have informed the commune of the work you are doing and in that way they will obviously tell you if the work requires permission or not...

i would say your first thing to clear up that the house/church is actually registered as a house.... and can be inhabited....

once that s cleared up and you are sure of its status then i think that you will find cement is often slapped on in this way to hold the building together... if you see lots of yellow staining on the wall it means that the earth which was used to build the wall has been washed out and that they are unstable....

two solutions ...demolish the whole place or render with cement as pointing or solely plastering will still leave the walls in an unstble condition ..... these are the worse two options

however if you have a proper survey of the place they will soon tell you if the structure is sound ... a good engineer/geometra.. can do this....

much as in england you cannot change agricultural registered land to garden without permission.... however as it sound s like you have your work cut out on the house anyway it might well be you will not be attempting this for a while.....

i would say always to check with the commune in any planned changes.... sometimes it just requires filling in a form with no cost which is solely stating that you have informed the commune of the work you are doing and in that way they will obviously tell you if the work requires permission or not...

john
I should have said the cement is just in a very small area where a meter was put in so not too much of a problem just unsightly.I do hope the demolish suggestion was a joke!!!we plan to repoint using a local colour in sympathy with the area.Loads of useful advice on this site!

Our survey found a the building was sound and in a good state structually.But the roof seems to just sit on the house so thats number one job. Everything else we will do ourselves.

Is it resonable to ask our geometra to get several quotes for the roofing job?Also does anyone know how long it will take for plans to go thro the commune?Weeks or months?

Becky

[QUOTE=manopello]john
I should have said the cement is just in a very small area where a meter was put in so not too much of a problem just unsightly.I do hope the demolish suggestion was a joke!!!we plan to repoint using a local colour in sympathy with the area.Loads of useful advice on this site!

Our survey found a the building was sound and in a good state structually.But the roof seems to just sit on the house so thats number one job. Everything else we will do ourselves.

Is it resonable to ask our geometra to get several quotes for the roofing job?Also does anyone know how long it will take for plans to go thro the commune?Weeks or months?

Becky[/QUOTE]
Becky, so much depends on the comune, it really helps if you make yourself known to the people who work there, as far as quotes are concerned, you will be paying the Geometra, so, you would expect to be calling the tune, just, point out politely that you wish to be involved at all stages. John gives very sound advice, I do not think he's joking, I personally know of two cases where demolish and rebuild became the only cost effective option, what did your surveyor say about the condition of the roof ??

regarding walls and roofs...

that is if you need anew roof.... the problem comes along because nowadays they weigh a lot more and they are integral to the wall...as you say old roofs just sit there and have very little to do with the walls..

... integral to the wall...this has an effect much like say an overweight baby of bowing the walls out...

which means when you have to put on a new roof they first check the walls can take that strain and then any intermedaite flooring between ground and roof also has to act as an anchoring device in a sense

so my only advise when buying a house requiring a new roof is never to believe any agent or even survey.... because no one will know unless they start pulling things to bits and investigating the structure intensively...employing a structural engeneer

our neighbours...italian... are doing up their houe...new roof...they liked our repointed walls but cannot have them on their house because the internal structure of the wall is not strong enough...ie rain has got in and washed out a lot of the earth...... all the floors had to be ripped up and the metal beams checked before they could say if they were strong enough also to allow the new roof to go on without replacing all the internal structural beams

its like a piece of string... no one will really know how much work it will be until they knock thing down... and by then you are commited... as others have said before here...the estate agent will tell you anything ... a geometra workng for the agent may not help much more... they are not qualified in structural engineering.... so if you here the famous words...that will not be costly or difficult.. i suggest you walk away and find an agent that will talk to you as practical person and admit that they cannot cost any renovation work properly.... and new roofs will always be a problem

John
I have decided not to go on this site for a few weeks as my head is reeling with worries about what I thought was a lovely house needing a little work!Now I think it may need knocking down.

I hope you are wrong in the case of the house but as you say its quite hard to predict how a restoration will go.We will see

Becky