½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

Where in Le Marche ???? builders seem only to work in specific areas, I know of a good team in the Aso valley and a builder around her I wouldn't let build a garden bench from a flat pack (I probably couldn't afford his finally adjusted bill) your experience with the costings seems to be common too, I despair at the way Geometri justify their professionalism when giving you their bill, yet they're totally unable to supply a firm estimate. Aaaarghhh, also beware of anyone recommended by your Agent too.

Why didn't I notice the location before in your post ? tired old eyes...
will check with my friend who is currently employing them to see if they would work there.

Unfortunately I am not in your immediate area so am unable to recommend any builders, but you DEFINITELY need to change your architect/geometra, they are talking rubbish. When we restored our house (not a huge project), our geometra drew up an incredibly detailed and specific work plan, this included the maximum costings of all materials and the builders labour costs. This was then put out to tender and a number of local builders bid for the contract, all offered a % discount on the geometra's costings and were specific as to when they could start work. Once we had decided as to which builder should win the contract the geometra drew up a Contratto di Appalto - this was what we and the builder signed, the exact work to be done, the start/ finish date and the costs were final. It was all very straight forward and there were no nasty surprises along the way. It sounds as if the geometra is trying it on, yes builders are in demand but they still compete for work even in Le Marche. To take a year to draw up plans is also ridiculous - it usually takes a few months from start to finish at the most. When builders want day rates they are often working in nero so are not paying taxes etc on the work done, you have no guarantees and costs can spiral out of control as they have no incentive to finish the job on time. Hopefully someone will be able to recommend builders in your area I'm sorry I can't.
Anne2

Anne, you seem to got an excellent arrangement with your architect/geometra. Are you paying high fees, as a single payment, or stage payment?. We understand there is a cost per sq. metre for architect and builders. Has this been your experience?. We have had drawings and amended drawings from our architect and some schems we didn't ask for but he thought we might like (we didn't) He still hasn't submitted the final plans to planning department, but we have paid £3,000 sterling as a stage payment. Did you find out whether there were any guidelines for appointing an architect etc. We would be grateful for your reply.

There are no specific guidelines for appointing an architect but you can ask the local Ordine di Architetti to see the Testo Unico della Tariffa degli Onorari per le prestazioni professionali dell’Ingegnere e dell’Architetto (Legislation 2.3.1949, n.143).

Project design and management normally comes to 8% to 10% (can go up to 14%) of the total renovation costs. On top of this you can expect a fixed fee that covers the coordination of safety, accounting, work progress and measurement plus 2% (CNPAIA fee that covers their contribution to the National Order of Professional Architects) On top of this is IVA at 20%.

The tariff includes other fees such as reimbursement of sundry expenses and travel costs etc., but you will need to negotiate these. It very much depends on your relationship with the architect and what services you require.

All fees should be clearly spelled out in a document called (which you should receive in ½ûÂþÌìÌà with the relevant and correct English translation):

INCARICO PER PRESTAZIONI PROFESSIONALI DELL’ARCHITETTO PER OPERE DI EDILIZIA E DI ARREDAMENTO

Normally when you have decided to go ahead and have signed the agreement you can expect to pay around 10% of the architects total fee to get the ball rolling. The rest is usually paid in stages.

I agree with Anne on all points. It is totally absurd to have to wait for a year. As for the comments regarding rules etc…they are laughable. Building laws and regulations are set out in the Testo unico delle disposizioni legislative e regolamentari in material edilizia (D.P.R. 6 June 2001 N0. 380).

When it comes to selecting builders…you have to take a commonsensical approach:

Be clear about what you want and how much you can afford (same applies when dealing with an architect/geometra)

Make sure that the builder is registered at the local Registro di Imprese and that they are legal and insured.

Make sure that you have a proper contract (in both languages) that spells out all the conditions and obligations.

Don’t go for the cheapest option.

Don’t pay everything up front. Stage payments are perfectly acceptable to a reputable builder.

ML. I have a spare copy of the September issue of Italy, which contains an article about renovation costs in the Marche. Renovation costs very across each region and they are strongly influenced by many variables but the article provides a guideline on what to expect.

If you would like this copy…send me a PM.

Steve,
Yes, I think we are very fortunate with our geometra. We found him by asking the ½ûÂþÌìÌà neighbours as to who they would recommend, he lives a couple of miles from us so is very local. As for costs, I think we paid him approx 10% of the total renovation cost as specified in the contract we had with the builder, plus the fixed fee (about 1500 Euros I think, but don't quote me, as mentioned by Charles) and the 2% contribution to the geometras pension fund! We paid him in stages as we also did with the builder, both seemed to expect we would do so, so it was never a problem and there was never any mention of payment up front. As he was so local there were no travel costs. Although our house needed a new roof, it was habitable and did not require any major structural work. The geometra arranged for an engineer to check everything out re all the seismic considerations but at no point did we feel the need to involve an architect.
Good luck, I hope your plans are passed soon.
Anne2

Thanks to everyone for their comments and guidance ...it is all really helpful and appreciated.

Any other comments/advice...keep it coming ...I'm a bit like a charity shop...nothing turned away.

Regards
ML

hi
i am a australian carpenter,have all my trade papers.
my wife and i are buying a house in marche.i want to start working for myself,im young (30) and fit and buying around cupramontana.any info you have to help me get started would be great.
many thanks.
matt

Well my very best advice is to make a fantastic job of the joinery in your own house - and use that as your advertisement!
If it is good, word will quickly spread amongst your neighbours and further afield. Find out what the local "rate for the job" is, and don't undercut it by much - that way you won't lose the respect of the local competition. If Le Marche is anything like Umbria, Tuscany or Lazio (and I think it is heading that way) there is plenty of room for a new joiner or two!

if your geometra is professional s/he should have done a computo metrico which is a bit like the book price guide fronm government ...you would have a list of everything itemised and youre builder should have costed it according to this "Glasses Guide" type thing per m sq etc.I believe you can access them on some govenment site or other...at least that way theres no hidden extras that run into thousands of euros-it sounds like theyre saying thats how theyve "estimated"but havent given you a document/written list??
sorry if this all sounds confusing
good luck shas

[LEFT][quote=tojo_42]hi
i am a australian carpenter,have all my trade papers.
my wife and i are buying a house in marche.i want to start working for myself,im young (30) and fit and buying around cupramontana.any info you have to help me get started would be great.
many thanks.
matt[/quote]

Hey Matt - welcome...
I've got a few things that need doing around the house. You give me a very good discount and I'll give you a very good reference [U]and[/U] tell all my friends. ;)
Cheers,
Daniela[/LEFT]