½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

As when we moved from South Africa to the UK, one of our justifications for doing so was that whilst there was crime in the UK, it was largely petty crime as opposed to violent crime.

I admit my definition of violent crime would differ from yours but basically it means not having a hand chopped off for a ring or watch and not being raped and murdered when your house is broken into or your car is hijacked.

I am applying a very similar definition to the issue of crime between the UK and Italy. In some parts of Italy there is violent crime, usually related to organised crime rings (Camorra, N'Dragheta' Cosa Nostra, etc), but on the whole from all I have heard and read, crime there falls into the 'petty crime' definition in that people are not often murdered, raped or physically assaulted to the degree they are left in hospital. I may be wrong on this but from the info I have received this seems to be the way of things in Italy.

In Ireland and the UK, it seems that violent crime and especially intimidation is on the up. This is the impression I get from the news over the past few years and also from the experiences of the rather expansive expat community settled in the UK.

not only living in the Uk

But I think that life in general in Italy is more safe than in Holland and Uk.

In holland it's becoming normal to get shot if you have a different
opinion.

We have just bought a house in le Marche
safer for our kids and our selves.

slow food / slow live more time for kids
ease down.

You have to work everywhere !!!!!
why not in Italy

good luck too you all in Bella Italia.

eef

I think the poll's a good idea but I hesitate to say that it may be a teensy bit biased ;)
People who read this forum and therefore vote on it are probably "lovers of all things ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ" and have probably moved to Italy because they were unhappy with their lives in the UK. The ones that have moved to Italy and thought it was worse than the UK are probably no longer "lovers of all things ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ" so don't read the forum and therefore don't vote!!

I totally agree with Will's comments on the driving. I have never walked about the UK being afraid of any potential crime that's about to happen to me but here I have to drive an hour per day on the motorway and every day see at least one move that causes a sharp intake of breath and gets my adrenalin going. I have been taken aback and quite horrified at the number of people killed in car accidents just in our local area. If they can manage to introduce a total smoking ban inside local areas then why can't they make wearing seatbelts in backseats a requirement? In the winter there were a couple of weekends in a row where they reported the total number of people killed in road accidents in Italy just over the weekend as being around 45-50 per weekend.

very fair comment Nicola - the poll is almost certainly biased! and I also agree on the driving point. In fact its interesting that a dicsussion which is essentialy about "what is dangerous in Italy" has very quickly turned to driving. I don't know what it will take to make people drive better though...if the shock of 100 people dead over a weekend does not do it and I don't know what will.

It is clear, at least to me, that this poll is all about crimes, and not accidents. When I visited Italia for the fist time in 1960, ½ûÂþÌìÌà drivers were nuts for the most part, and it appears nothing has changed, nor will ever change. Ronald, if I am wrong with my understanding of your poll, then please define your poll with a short preamble, otherwise it is fine as it is.

Will,
You bring up a good point, some of the driving probably either is or borders on the criminal, and should be considered in this poll. However, a pure accidental death should not. Coming up with a poll that leaves no doubt is a very difficult, if not impossible, task.

I feel more in danger of a serious car accident in Italy but less at risk from a road rage incident; safer in a pub, bar or club but more at risk at a soccer match; less at risk from a violent mugging but more at risk from having my wallet lifted. At home in Italy or in England I feel pretty safe so perhaps I should just stay at home.....but in Italy or England?

SDOJ

You can't generalise about most things regarding crime in Italy - it's hard to draw parallels between cities like Lucca and Naples, for example.

One thing I've consistently noticed, though, is that you don't seem to get the fear factor when you go out after dusk in most towns and cities. In Britain, once the shops have closed around 5.30pm or 6pm, towns are taken over by a completely different set of people. The atmosphere becomes a bit tense - you need to be ready for anything. Alcohol enters the equation. And casual, random acts of violence are hardly unusual.

Whereas in Italy, which like most Latin countries doesn't have an alcohol-fuelled culture, walking around in the evening is not only a necessary pastime, it's actually a relaxing one. I'd think nothing of strolling about with my 4 and 7 year olds - because everyone else does too. In Britain, though, I would be much more wary. All because getting drunk is socially unacceptable, not acceptable.

As previous posters have pointed out, though, there's an underside to Italy which maybe we don't see so readily. Anyone following football regularly (Tim Parks' excellent book "A Season With Verona" provides a vivid portrait) will know what I mean. Like every other country, Italy has its undesirables. I just think the average ½ûÂþÌìÌà is less likely to descend to the undesirable than the average Briton.

sorry but on the football front I have to disagree big style - I am frequent watcher of football both in the Uk and in Italy. For sure there is more passion in the ½ûÂþÌìÌà game and more atmosphere due to it - but more dangerous NAAAA no way Hose

Try going to Cardiff, Manchester, Millwall, Newcastle or Spurs then try going to Milan , Rome, Brescia, Fiorentina or Bologna and tell me which is worse. I have been to all these grounds {and more} following both my english side {Leeds United} and my italian side {Brescia} and I'd feel a hell of a lot safer in Italy everytime whether home or away whether with my italian side or my English Side - football too is safer in Italy.

Yeah the Ultras are more vocal, yeah there are flares and occasionally trouble - but every time I have been to Manchester I have run a guantlet of Bricks, Millwall is like going to work during the miners strike back in the eighties and only a complete and utter nutter would make there own way around Cardiff, Newcastle or Spurs all horrible horrible places to visist as an opposing fan - always a chance of trouble as a home and it must be anightmare for any civvie just wanting to get about there business.

Give me italy every time !!!!

Leeds fans always do provoke a reaction !

SDOJ

As we're on the topic of football, the only time I have encounted trouble whilst watching Manchester United in the UK has been when we've played Leeds. In fact, until I got my season ticket, the match against Leeds would be the only one I wouldn't go to!

I've travelled to Italy (Inter), Portugal (Porto), France (Liile), Germany (Borussia Dortmund), Spain (Barcelona), Denmark (Brondby), Austria (Vienna) and Greece (Panathinaikos) to watch United and only had problems in Italy and Portugal. In Milan, we were pelted with fruit, bottles and other things that we couldn't make out, and I believe that some of the supporters were 'baton charged' by the police as they were trying to get in the stadium. In Portugal, we were shot at.

I think sometimes the local police expect trouble from English football fans, which is understandable after some of the things that have gone on, and when nothing untoward happens, they try provokation. I'm not saying all English football fans are innocent, sadly they aren't.

Having said all of this, I no longer enjoy a night out in Manchester city centre. I work on the edge of Moss Side/Rusholme in Manchester and if we are on a night out from work, we usually stick close to the office, where I feel less threatened.

I have been holidaying in Italy for 9 years and have never felt threatened or uncomfortable there, particularly when out in the evenings.

Quickie to Forza Brescia - I didn't mean to imply ½ûÂþÌìÌà football may be more dangerous to watch than British - quite the opposite in fact. I just wanted to point out that some of the problems we Italophiles sometimes highlight in our own cultures, can be present in the Bel Paese too. Take racism. Not much more than a week ago, it was announced that for the first time ever in Italy, a soccer club (Verona) is to be forced to close its ground because of racial abuse. Lazio's been fined for persistent swastika-waving by fans. More controversy in the past few days over Paolo di Canio's alleged Nazi salute. Now there's a discussion topic - to what extent does football reflect society?

Quote from Janie "As we're on the topic of football, the only time I have encounted trouble whilst watching Manchester United in the UK has been when we've played Leeds. " - Janie don't stop going

I have been to Old Trafford 20-30 times over the years - every time your supporters brick our buses and attack us on the way home - When we returned to the premiership I thought things might improve infact it was exactly the same. But you & I know, that not every supporter of our respective clubs thinks this way - I go to old Trafford every time we play {one day I hope to see us win there too} - I will not let the thugs that follow either team drive me away - please do the same - they cannot be allowed to win.

SODJ - not sure where you are coming from the majority of Leeds fans are well behaved and do not want trouble - Our reputation from the seventies and Eighties does make us a target - if that is your point, I watched just about every game on our European adventures and there was no trouble, a few arrests, mainly for D&D, but generally we were well received - I still have the press cutting from the Gazzetta after our trip to Milan which heaped praise on our fans.

John - Sorry if I have taken this thread off topic - As for football and politics - that should be a new thread entirely.

[QUOTE=Forza Brescia]Quote from Janie "As we're on the topic of football, the only time I have encounted trouble whilst watching Manchester United in the UK has been when we've played Leeds. " - Janie don't stop going

I have been to Old Trafford 20-30 times over the years - every time your supporters brick our buses and attack us on the way home - When we returned to the premiership I thought things might improve infact it was exactly the same. But you & I know, that not every supporter of our respective clubs thinks this way - I go to old Trafford every time we play {one day I hope to see us win there too} - I will not let the thugs that follow either team drive me away - please do the same - they cannot be allowed to win.[/QUOTE]
I don't think my post was clear. Before I got my season ticket and had to apply for tickets on a match by match basis, the only one I wouldn't apply for was Leeds. Now I have a season ticket, I go to all matches. You are right, Forza, we should not let the mindless thugs win.

and let's face it - It will be a long long time before we have to worry about this fixture again !!!!! {wish I could work out the smilies}

[QUOTE=Forza Brescia]and let's face it - It will be a long long time before we have to worry about this fixture again !!!!! {wish I could work out the smilies}[/QUOTE]
You never know, when Mr Glazer has done to us what Mr Ridsdale did to you, it might be sooner than we think!