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Don't go!!!.  We love you!!!  Patience!!!  Ronald and Valentina are working on the website still.  Did you not try the New Activity link on the top menu???  regards, sempre_italia

Think I'll be following you - it's all gloss and no substance - why do we need all these graphics - most forums are about exchanging information -most of which is text) so why do we need all these bells and whistles. Chris

No no patience required for you too!!!.  Stay!!!  Start a thread that we can get our teeth into!!!  regards, sempre_italia

A bit more time is needed. You will get used to the new format and I am certain that there will be more improvements. 

took me a while to realise that logically i had to ignore whatever number of pages beyond 2... otherwise my life would be spent reading forum input.. much of which would be irrelevant to me...as outside areas or fields i was interested in ...to my mind until Ronald can get the filter working to do this automatically its fairly simple... i click the new posts button and pretty well much like the old forum i know when i last visited and that's the limit... all new posts have a time beside... if i want to keep track of what i did only i whizz to my activity and they are all there if there are new posts i can reply...on the old forum a computer did this for you ...if when you logged back in after a week away there would be new posts since your last visit... so lots.. after a day less... the only problem with this system is that it holds them all available ... but you know when you last visited so just go back to that point in looking...which is often only half the first page..anyway that's how i do it... not saying you should stay or leave... either of you .. just this place takes a bit more thought ... which after a while will become automatic...of course regarding new posts ...you could make the effort and read all of them ...so emptying that option of all old new posts and start afresh ...religiously reading all every day... which would then only be a page maybe.... but i prefer to miss what i have missed already... much as it happened on the old forum... if i didn't read all posts when i logged in...  

I'm afraid I have to agree re the format. I've tried to give it a go reading some of this stuff, but the format and layout is not logical or intuitive to my mind.  Noone in their right mind is going to have time or indeed inclination to read everything trying to find areas of interest.  If this was a Sunday newpaper with all the supplements I would select the bits I want, and ignore/recycle/bin the ones I'm not at all interested in. Somewhere in between there might be an interesting topic that grabs my attention by a catchy heading. BUT. There is no logical newspaper index to this site so it feels like I'm just reading random shouts whenever I log on.  It's a bit sad that it's a fait accomplis rather than trial and see what people want as their options.  Quite honestly new activity only works for those who log on regularly. FWIW what worked in the older format was the headings and sub headings that I would maybe select 2-3 areas I was interested in but if something new jumped out of a say language or culture section I might or might not read based on the heading.  Please listen to the readers and maybe consider modifying?

Ci vediamo...........................................................force?

Reminds me of the story of the king and his new clothes.Although he is actually naked the word getting around is that only clever or smart people can see his wonderful new clothes.......When all along the really smart people actually can see the foolish king is actually naked......... Although now that the site has lost what is normally considered a proper functional organised structure,one might say it does mirror Italy and its Woes more closely, which is somewhat funny as thats exactly what many of the users have complained about in the past as being something that Italy suffers from,and could well do without......

Have to agree with the above, have looked in and seen a piazza with no heart or soul. How sad! It used to be a little confrontation on the old forum but at least it had some spirit. This is a case for A & E.

Also agree.  The old forum had become too fiery but this is just a bit too chilly for me!  Doesn't seem to have any atmosphere or warmth and although I have been checking in, other than today I haven't felt inspired to contribute.I find the lay out uninviting and as others have already said, faced with pages of unread posts which you can't always get a feel for from the subject title I find myself giving up.I hope things get better but I fear for many the wait will be too long.Jackie  

 I have to disagree, there is a soul in the new community, groups are working, old members are coming back and posts are getting answers. There are some technical problems which will be solved in due time. Also, you need to get used to the new format, which takes some time; however, there is no need to go through nine pages to find out what is going on. The forum was great and I was an active member for quite a long time. I enjoyed it; however, there was unpleasantness, lack of respect, unnecessary bickering and harassment by a small number of people. We lost quite a few members through that. Others were scared to participate and anyone (like myself) who tried to find some common ground and bring peace became targets.Nothing stops us from having a good discussion providing we have an interesting topic and we all play by the basic rules, which means that we can have different opinions and express them, as long as we apply the basic rules of self-moderation.There are plenty of things which could be improved and if we have any ideas we can convey them to the administration.We have to think in terms of positive contribution, that is what is needed.As far as I'm concerned, "the old forum is dead, long live the new community". And I do intend to enjoy it. I wish you the same.

Thanks Gala as ever I agree with you, this is much more refreshing, and I am working my way around it. have already met in real life some great people through the community, who are a huge asset to the fund raising we have been doing, full of information and excellent advice and positive ideas.And as in the old forum retain the idea of support for members.A

It's said you cannot please everyone.   However Rnnald has just posted an update on changes and additions he has made.  He's listening - great!!!  regards, sempre_italia

I've just written a long response which disappeared into the ether just before I finished it. I'm unsure as to whether it still might turn up here or not. So if so apologies for duplication, and revision.It's interesting reading the responses to this. Clearly some people feel this is refreshing compared to before, but others just feel it's not easy to navigate and worse it's a bit souless and cold.  For me, it's purely a simplicy of navigation and ease of use issue which I'm fairly sure should be resolvable.  It wasn't an "I'm leaving" criticism. It was a "please listen to people with different yet simple preferred usage of forums" type of comment.  Because if the layout worked before it must surely be easy to make it an option again?If I logged on here really regularly and just wanted to keep on top of a community, this format possibly works.  However, if I want to do a combination of random log in depending upon how busy I am, combined with increased log in prior to a visit to italy. I'll want to easily go to a specific location or ici or enel topics. This isn't now clear from this layout. For someone new I think it's really difficult to see what's going on and it may seem more like an exclusive club?  But if we could have the option to just change it from chronological to topic/theme I would be happier.  Those above who seem to like this format have that choice as well.  Seriously, think about it if seeing this page as a newby?Most importantly,  I really  really dislike the fact that the subject may give you no inidicatilon of what the content is in the current view. I'd no idea what my subject would be and now edit this to say it's the first five words of this reply.  What does that tell anyone looking at topics?  This is the key problem I have.is feedback not just unnecessary criticism so if you are listening and wanting us to be part of this, is this something you could consider.  Adriatica, I'm certainly not longing for the forum of yore, but instead I'm talking about the layout options that we could have.  I fear this format may become far more like an exclusive group than the other did if it's just in current format.  That's my view.  We'll tsee what happens. If it's all a continual defensive ;just bear with it (or leave?)' ather that a 'we'ree listening and we'll see what we can do' I'll spend more time.  Otherwise I'll be disappointed that I've wasted ten mnutes of my life taking the time to write this. Thanks for listening. C

 Caralina, see Ronald's update here  

It took me a good while to find my way around the old forum, not because I'm a particular technophobe, but because (and I know I'm not the only one) I'm still on an excruciatingly slow connection.  There is no sign when Telecom Italia is going to change this for us, they've already changed half the commune, so don't seem to feel the need to do the rest of us.  So not only don't I have the time to navigate my way around to find out how all these new fangled gismos work, every minute also costs me money.As others have said, this was for me mainly about exchanging ideas, information etc.  I tended to reply to things I felt I had something to say about and asked questions I didn't know the answer to.  Now I think I'll just do it the old fashioned way and ask the neighbours.  Much more civilised anyway.

HI everyoneThe main problem as I see it is that many users are used to forums, like forums and want forums. Forums are not good at forming real communities but are good for users who want to get information "Where can I get a UK passport in Italy?" However the community has been switched over to something called 'groups'. Groups are different by nature and are excellent for forming real communities. They allow users with a similar interest to come together and form groups. ANYONE can usually apply start up a group - on most sites this is given so long as the group isn't occult, pornographic etc and fits within the general theme of the site. If there is interest then the group flourishes - if not then it will wither and die. Inside a group is where the discussion, sharing ideas, photos, tips, personal information etc takes place. Typical reasons for forming a group might be location (see the Le Marche Chapter House for an example of a group that works well), hobbies, culture etc. Groups can be public or private. I would imagine that this site would only want public groups (unless you have special groups who need to hide their discussions - e.g. ItalyMag finance group??) For public groups on this site I would expect all posts to be public and non-group members to be able to read comments. This allows all users to see what interesting discussions are taking place in groups and make a decision on whether they want to join the group and start contributing to discussions. I would also expect most groups to allow automatic membership (unless you want to moderate every request to join a group!) The main piazza is not really where discussion should take place - it should simply be the home page where latest posts from across the groups appear - for anyone who wants to keep track on what's going on and might see something of interest. Now here is the good bit - you should also have forums! For those who want forums then give them forums. It works - these groups are built in a community platform called Drupal and the drupal community has both forums and groups - forums are great for all those "I need to get an �������� passport and don't know how to get one - can anyone help" type posts or "It's really hot in Italy at the moment isn't it!". Groups are great for ...well forming groups like the Le Marche Group, the Tuscany Group, Animal Lovers group etc...and hopefully inside these groups a real community forms - especially if the group is owned by the members and run by the members. If the people want forums then give them forums as well as groups. If you don't believe it works then here are and here are .�����𱹲�����������

I'm still a little confused and it looks as if your'e the man to explain this to me.  Okay I have a public group, Vita Urbana.  I have members and  I only want members to post.  That is possible isn't it???

 "So not only don't I have the time to navigate my way around to find out how all these new fangled gismos work, every minute also costs me money."I recommend getting Telecom Italia flat rate dial up- paying by the minute isn't a good value.   

Always read your posts,i think i said it before  slightly dark in content but well worth the read.So forgive me for taking issue  with you, but why are you of all people dragging up old woes? move on, thats what this site is all about,. So i wont bother in countering parts of your statement by saying they  are very inaccurate, because i want to move on.And maybe you could respond as to why if indeed other forums were to use this site to get new members that would be in your mind wrong?Surely the old IM has gone and left a gap for old users and new users of here to cater for them...nobody has to eat pasta seven days a wekk

"I'm still a little confused and it looks as if your'e the man to explain this to me.  Okay I have a public group, Vita Urbana.  I have members and  I only want members to post.  That is possible isn't it???" QUOTE FROM SEMPRE ITALIAHi Sempre Italia I just visitied your group and thought it might help explain if I gave feedback about your group. If I log out and visit your group as an anonymous user then I see just your welcome message and that there are 9 comments. But I can't read the comments. I can't really make a decision on whether or not to join your group just by reading the welcome message alone. I register on ItalyMag and visit your group. I can only see a welcom message but I can read the 9 comments - looks interesting but nobody has posted anything in your group that I can see. I can't really make a decision on whether to join your group. However, your group could be really lively with lots of postings and lots of discussion. But if everyone chooses to not make posts public then I can't see what's going on in the group which is a real shame if it is in fact full of great discussion. In fact I did want to join your group but couldn't see the 'join group' button - must be somewhere but I gave up looking after 20 seconds and moved on.... I will return in a moment and try again because I do want to join your group. I hope it's not like the other groups I joined where I had to wait until the group admin approved my request ... better if the setting is automatic membership...see you in the group is you will have me as a member... Kevan 

Thank you Kevin.  You have to have your membership approved by Yours Truly.  I do not want outsiders to post hence I haven't posted  since my initial welcome post.  The group doesn't have to be big to function well.  regards,  sempre_italia

 If I understand Kevin, the problem isn't not being able to post, but to even read content, and know whether they would be interested in asking to join."If I log out and visit your group as an anonymous user then I see just your welcome message and that there are 9 comments. But I can't read the comments. I can't really make a decision on whether or not to join your group just by reading the welcome message alone."    

I'm a distant observer on all this now, but, Just out of interest how much consultation did Poundbury and Ronald (or are they one and the same now?) give the 7000 members of the old forum before this ......errr ...... group thingy materialised?Surely  Ronald  previously so often the voice of democracy and reason didnt just pull the plug...?  

My understanding is that Italymag had been considering this move for well over a year.  regards, sempre_italia

 Very interesting and informative posts, Kevan. I am sure that they will help the Administration to implement certain changes which will be useful to all. I do think that Groups are going to be more important than before. Some of the new ones are working very well, some will need more TLC. I encourage everyone to join groups according to your personal preferences and interests. And I do believe that they should be open.Kevan, I am giving you 5 stars for your input.My other five stars go to Adriatica for his post on the old forum.Caralina, I am sure that the Administration will look into the problems you state. It does take some time to get used to this format. I believe I am starting to understand it.....

 No, it's up to the group-starter if the group is  open to all members or not, just like on the old board (remember the Rat and Carrot?):Membership requests: * Open - membership requests are accepted immediately. Moderated - membership requests must be approved. Invite only - membership must be created by an administrator. Closed - membership is exclusively managed by an administrator. Other than sempre_italia, most seem to have elected open membership. "With groups - am I now right in thinking that when I log on and see those first 16 or so pages I am not seeing all the posts?"The posts in an open group also appear here in the piazza, so you needn't join a group to see them.  The group is just a convenient spot where they are all located together, like a sub-forum on the old board. In fact,  the group a post is from is printed above the post title in the piazza.      

I explained myself poorly - sorry.   When I said Group Owner I meant the person who started the thread and who had the power to decide 'who could post' there... as per your explanation Bill.The Setting Up A Group Guidelines explain it more clearly though:Quote:  3.Choose who can join the group - Open: anyone can join. Moderated: anyone can apply and you get to approve them or not. Invite only: they must be explicitly invited by someone already in the group. Closed: only you can choose who is part of the group and only you can invite them.  

 Yep, that's why my post above includes the options available to the Group creater:"No, it's up to the group-starter if the group is  open to all members or not, just like on the old board (remember the Rat and Carrot?): Membership requests: * Open - membership requests are accepted immediately. Moderated - membership requests must be approved. Invite only - membership must be created by an administrator. Closed - membership is exclusively managed by an administrator." 

Quite a few things are discussed here - I will try to explain how we envision the setup here to be used.There are three dimensions to the community - this divides discussions according to subject. It is the closest you get to the old forums. There are 7-8 large themes with sub-topics and we have designed the topic page to offer a "forum-style" view of topics. You can use the various links to post into a specific topic and others can comment on posts, etc.Location - this divides topics according to location - and is a big improvement to the previous forums. One of the challenges of the previous forums was to deal with information that was both topic relevant (e.g. property) but also location-specific (e.g. property in sicily). I Now it is possible to look for property related discussions in Umbria or Food related subjects in Sicily (but even drill down to a specific town). Next week we will have a Location page that resembles the topic page that will hopefully go some way towards making it easier to realise that this functionality is here. Combining Locations with Topics makes a Grand Tour section (ala old forums) redundant. It is enough to visit a place page (e.g. ) and then filter according to a topic.Groups - Groups offer two functionalities - firstly to enable members to discuss topics and or locations that are perhaps not quite covered by the "official" lists above, but, more importantly enable members to aggregate around a subject and hence connect better because their interests are made obvious through membership  (e.g. Le Marche people, Northen Tuscany people, Gardening people, etc, etc).As a means to give the group owner more control they can choose which members to accept and how to moderate entry in the group. Obviously open groups have more chances to grow. But it may even make sense for someone to have a closed group of just 4-5 members that perhaps want to explore a specific issue with more flexibility than mails or anything like that. Finally a group posting may be also tagged as public which open it up to discussion from anyone in the community. Again this is a personal choice. These three "dimensions" allow people to explore topics and locations and combinations of these with more flexibility. Now, there is a question of easy of use and tools to make using the community better. We are working on the various issues and something like "mark all as read", the text-editor, etc have all been focused towards making using the website easier. We are not however looking to re-create the forums (i.e. replicate all functionality) we believe leaving things simpler may be easier.Finally, I realise that for whoever was very used to the forum format a lot has changed. The piazza is a different place and it needs getting used to. We hope that through explaining and adjusting we will make the transition easier. 

As an aside but excuse me, I would never never say toilet, loo or lavatory perhaps but toilet never. mis quoted yet again!A

Don't like or use the word "lavatory" Angie Girl.  "Toilet" to me is far more acceptable.  And in Italy - "toilette"!!!  regards, sempre_italia

It's simply too much effort to simply stop by for 5 minutes every day (as I used to previously) and catch up/comment on something.  This is simply tiresome.  I never look backwards in IT-world, I love progress.  This isn't progress.

Is back, and it does seem to be getting a bit easier and life does seem to be returning...   we are all obviously old dogs refusing to learn new tricks....