½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

Oh lordy!

........light blue touch-paper & retire

John,

I am not a practicing Roman Catholic myself but I think you have to take the Papal Decree in context and that context is that all Catholic priests are expected to be celibate. If you start from there then it is easier to understand what the decree is trying to ban namely the ordination of "those who are actively homosexual, have deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called gay culture".

I don't understand what is intended by the last two phrases so here is an explanation from a practicing Catholic:
Father Timothy Radcliffe, the English former master of the worldwide Dominican Order, who is now based at Blackfriars, Oxford, wrote in last week's Tablet Catholic magazine: "I have no doubt that God does call homosexuals to the priesthood and they are among the most dedicated and impressive priests I have met.

"Perhaps [the document] is best understood as meaning ... someone whose sexual orientation is so central to his self-perception as to be obsessive, dominating his imagination. This would indeed pose questions as to whether he would be able to live happily as a celibate priest. But any heterosexual who was so focused on his sexuality would have problems too. What matters is sexual maturity rather than orientation."

sdoj

my arguement still stands... most sexual agression and uncontrollable violence derives from the male hetrosexual population.... generally directed against children and women... and often against each other....

which if you accept this would seem to me to lead to a further presumption ... that it would be better if all priests were of the gay community .... women church officials could be of either persuasion as they do not have the male hetrosexual problem of uncontrollable violence

[QUOTE=adriatica].......it goes a bit like this....from now on no homosexual will be tolerated by the church either practicing or not ....to either enter into or to become a priest.... there are three reasons... 1 a homosexual cannnot control himself/.herself.... 2 it is an illness 3 they will become paedophiles....

.... it goes against all common sense and even statistics that make it quite clear that the vast overwhelming majority of paedophilia originates from the male hetrosexual population...

a priest in a discussion here...well he was a cardinal....suggest that the only natural state for children is to be brought up by a married mother and father and that the father will never look on his children as sexual objects.... where has he been living all these years.... ... and i do not know the last time i heard of any homosexual rape taking place ...but hetrosexual male rape of women.... so who cannot control themselves...

as a further addendum to the homosexual theory it is also regarded that a family is not a family where the parents are not married in a religous sense...

there are those here and in the rest of the world that will believe it as true because of the doctrinal status of that state..... and [B]god help us we have another german [/B]pronouncing on groups of people in medieval terms that i had hoped were long past....

...

if the european union has any power at all this state should be blockaded and sanctioned against until it recognises the rights of all humans of whatever creed ...sexual preference ....woman or man... to exist freely and without prejudice ... and these sanctions should remain in place until this decree is resinded and an apology made to the gay population of the world in regards its unfounded accusations regarding their predelence to paedophilia and uncontrollable sexual appetite[/QUOTE]

Hi John,

You've raised a very interesting topic here but to bring the views of a religious institution down to one man only, oops and he's a German, is a bit harsh! After all, he was his predecessor's advisor and as far as we know JP II seemed to agree with the advice given. He also received the most votes which seems to show that most men in cassocks in the Vatican's dark chambers agree too... So please don't fall into the usual prejudice trap.

You cannot ask for a religious institution to be blockaded as you'd probably have to take the cause up against most religious beliefs, incl Islam and Judaism, the writings of which also mention the superiority of some and inferiority of others. You can protest quietly, like I did when I left the RC church as I don't agree with the Vatican's doctrines either - and refused to pay church tax to an absurdly rich business. But true followers, as you say, will sadly find excuses ...

I agree with you that most paedophiles are heteros & that the Vatican's interpretation is ludicrous. Many RCs will quietly agree too but won't bother leaving the Church for whatever reason.

Cheers,
Stephanie

[QUOTE=adriatica]sdoj

my arguement still stands... most sexual agression and uncontrollable violence derives from the male hetrosexual population.... generally directed against children and women... and often against each other....

which if you accept this would seem to me to lead to a further presumption ... that it would be better if all priests were of the gay community .... women church officials could be of either persuasion as they do not have the male hetrosexual problem of uncontrollable violence[/QUOTE]

I have never witnessed a Roman Catholic priest being violent but I have read about it in Don Camillo books but I don't think the brief for the Roman Catholic "think tank" was violent priests but rather to investigate the root causes for the alarming paedophile scandals (mostly from English speaking countries and mostly homosexual). I have read that most of these errant priests had not entered the priesthood with the intention of acting as sexual predators but were unable to control their desires and it is presumably the view of the think tank that they were not "sexually mature" to borrow Father Radcliffe's phrase.

[QUOTE=sdoj]I don't understand what is intended by the last two phrases so here is an explanation from a practicing Catholic:
Father Timothy Radcliffe, the English former master of the worldwide Dominican Order, who is now based at Blackfriars, Oxford, wrote in last week's Tablet Catholic magazine: "I have no doubt that God does call homosexuals to the priesthood and they are among the most dedicated and impressive priests I have met.

"Perhaps [the document] is best understood as meaning ... someone whose sexual orientation is so central to his self-perception as to be obsessive, dominating his imagination. This would indeed pose questions as to whether he would be able to live happily as a celibate priest. But any heterosexual who was so focused on his sexuality would have problems too. What matters is sexual maturity rather than orientation."[/QUOTE]

I know the Church reserves the right to declare what a book written thousands of years ago actually [I]means[/I], but it seems odd that a pronouncement by the Church made a few days ago should need any interpretation or explanation.

Isn't this sort of thing usually called "spin"?

I find it understandable. I'm sure some members of the Church hierarchy are rational enough to be concerned when declarations from the Vatican seem ignorant and reactionary to people with modern sensibilities.

Al

John, I totally agree with your views on this matter and as a gay man I am acutely aware of how dangerous such words are from these so called people of God.

My personal theory on the paedophilia problem in the RC church is that it is such a well known "sanctuary" for deviants of this kind. They can join a community under the cover of the cloth and perpetuate this sick practice with others of the same mind.

Whilst the same could be said of homosexuals, in that some gay men are drawn to the church to allow them to associate with other gay men, the conclusion that a gay man is a paedophile is both ridiculous and extremely dangerous.

The reason I believe why there is such a large percentage of gay men in the church is that they live in society so supressed about same sex relationships, because of the words from the vatican, they enter a society where it is known that homosexual activity is commonplace. The fact that that society happens to be the church is so ironic.

My partner, who is ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ, left Italy because of the repression he felt and he has told me so many things about the church, the practices of local priests and how commonly known it is that at least one Pope in recent times was gay.

I am not a religious man, but I believe I am a good person, with respect for my fellow man and an awareness of of what is right and what is wrong. Religion on the other hand uses the teaching of whatever "god" it may be, to justify horrendous acts against fellow men, in the name of "god".

I hope that one day the vatican will re interpret some of the bible and accept that what it does does now is incite hatred and bigotry between good people. The fact the new pope is German, doesn't fill me with confidence that this will happen!

As with any bigot, there does not have to be any justificaction for the view they have and hence to link homosexuality and paedophilia is as logical to them as stating that women who wear sexy clothing are asking to be raped.

[QUOTE=AllanMason]....

Isn't this sort of thing usually called "spin"?

I find it understandable. I'm sure some members of the Church hierarchy are rational enough to be concerned when declarations from the Vatican seem ignorant and reactionary to people with modern sensibilities.

Al[/QUOTE]

There is a more moderate movement within the church where many don't agree and actually find the Vatican's outlook old-fashioned and dangerous in view of the church's survival. But to come out in the open would mean that someone above you would give you a knock on the head so it's often behind closed doors that they mention their discontent.

I've been a bit torn as I was raised as a RC and still believe in many aspects of their teaching, but completely disagree on the other hand with the Vatican's archaic point of view. The church has to move into the 21st Century in order to survive.

Stephanie

Stephanie

Here is the link to an article in the Times

[url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1897264,00.html[/url]

[QUOTE=Russ]....
I am not a religious man, but I believe I am a good person, with respect for my fellow man and an awareness of of what is right and what is wrong. Religion on the other hand uses the teaching of whatever "god" it may be, to justify horrendous acts against fellow men, in the name of "god".

I hope that one day the vatican will re interpret some of the bible and accept that what it does does now is incite hatred and bigotry between good people. The fact the new pope is German, doesn't fill me with confidence that this will happen!

As with any bigot, there does not have to be any justificaction for the view they have and hence to link homosexuality and paedophilia is as logical to them as stating that women who wear sexy clothing are asking to be raped.[/QUOTE]

Russ,

I agree with your view that people should have respect for other groups but sadly it's a human trait that won't be eradicated quickly enough... there will always be some and unfortunately in high places to spread their venom.

As for the pope's nationality... clearly Polish and ½ûÂþÌìÌà popes obviously must be more respectful eh?? I don't agree with his views either but using his country of birth as an excuse is equally dangerous. We're not all the same!

Stephanie

...blockading religous institutions.... that i could not do.... but the vatican state ...why not....

a recent attempt to let women join the swiss guard was disallowed... why would they want to...dont know...but i have to respect their right to do so.... women battled and have used the power of the eu to fight for equality.... within italy we have a state... which practices many of the restrictions that have been disallowed or sanctioned aginst throughout the world....

now if prince charles ...or even the word fumbling philip was to promote these views in england or any other person in the civilised world ...would they not be castigated.... made to apologise ....

to me in italy because of the close association between catholic state and italian state these words have a much more powerful affect than say england... recently there was an italian referendum on stem cell research the papal line was to not vote at all... effectively nulling the referendum... an interference in state politics of italy....they have also been fighting hard against the proposed newer methods of abortion...ie the pill rather than surgical ..... again a massive and unwarrented attack on the rights of the italian state....

there is a slow battle building here and a political uncomfortableness with the willingness of this vatican to interfere in secular state matters....

... hopefully the state of italy will win over the medieval vatican set up....

... i find it hard to believe that any section of any comunity in the so called civilised world is allowed to castigate,humiliate and incite hatred in this way... my call remains for a full eu blockade and sanction against this errant and medieval culture of hate...within its own borders... and the closing of all political and commercial trade until it fulls into line with the recognised rights of all to equal treatment

I don't think nor have I ever said that all homosexuals are paedophiles and I don't know whether more paedohiles are straight or gay but it would seem likely that more are straight than gay. However, what is well documented is that most of the paedophile cases in the Roman Catholic church involved boys, which doesn't mean that the abusers were exclusively homosexual, they may have been bi-sexual.
On another note could I request that we all respect the rights of others to believe and to follow Roman Catholic doctrine and not to go overboard in the criticism...isn't there a new law about this coming along soon? Mr Been is upset because he fears he won't be able to do his pompous vicar impersonations anymore. Also could I request that we don't lambast the Pope for being German... there are many great individuals who have come out of that country and it is the worst sort of stereotyping to refer to anyone whose views you don't like as another Hitler. If you want to find outspoken homophobic clergy you would have easy pickings amongst the Anglican bishopric in Africa but that does not mean that every African is a homophobe so let's stop stereotyping.

[QUOTE=Iona]
As for the pope's nationality... clearly Polish and ½ûÂþÌìÌà popes obviously must be more respectful eh?? I don't agree with his views either but using his country of birth as an excuse is equally dangerous. We're not all the same!

Stephanie[/QUOTE]

Hi Stephanie,

On another thread, you once mentioned that you [B]sometimes[/B] find your fellow countrymen embarassing to be around when they are abroad well I [B]usually[/B] find my countrymen embarassing to be around when they talk about Germany. But I notice it less in youngsters, maybe something has changed for the better in the way history is taught in English schools.

My apologies for the German reference........ I should be the last person to stereotype people!

[QUOTE=sdoj]I don't think nor have I ever said that all homosexuals are paedophiles and I don't know whether more paedohiles are straight or gay but it would seem likely that more are straight than gay. However, what is well documented is that most of the paedophile cases in the Roman Catholic church involved young boys, which doesn't mean that the abusers were exclusively homosexual, they may have been bi-sexual.
On another note could I request that we all respect the rights of others to believe and to follow Roman Catholic doctrine and not to go overboard in the criticism...isn't there a new law about this coming along soon? Mr Been is upset because he fears he won't be able to do his pompous vicar impersonations anymore. Also could I request that we don't lambast the Pope for being German... there are many great individuals who have come out of that country and it is the worst sort of stereotyping to refer to anyone whose views you don't like as another Hitler. If you want to find outspoken homophobic clergy you would have easy pickings amongst the Anglican bishopric in Africa but that does not mean that every African is a homophobe so let's stop stereotyping.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, me again. This comment perpetuates the belief that homesexuality/bi-sexuality has a direct link to paedophilia does it not!?

Let's get this straight (no pun intended), such people are scum in their own right and should not be associated with any sexual persuasion other than their own twisted belief that what they do is ok. Agreed?

[QUOTE=Russ]Sorry, me again. This comment perpetuates the belief that homesexuality/bi-sexuality has a direct link to paedophilia does it not!?

Let's get this straight (no pun intended), such people are scum in their own right and should not be associated with any sexual persuasion other than their own twisted belief that what they do is ok. Agreed?[/QUOTE]

Sorry Russ no it does not:
I wrote: [I]but it would seem likely that more {paedophiles} are straight than gay[/I]

However, what is indisputable is that most of the victims involved in the RC scandals were boys...hence the Vatican's eight year long investigation and this controversial document. It could be that boys are easier prey in the sense that they might be less likely to speak out and that they are more likeley to be left alone with a man of the cloth than a young girl, which is why I included the possibility that the errant priests may be bi-sexual.
I think science still has a lot to learn about the psyche of the paedophile but one thing that is known already is that the abusers were very often abused as children themselves and might benefit from early help before their urges get the better of them.

If the separation of church and state is a good thing (and I beleive it is), then surely the situation where the church is effectively relegated, not just to a different arm of government (as with Britain's monarch), but to an entirely different state is a good thing. OK, I know that the Vatican state is physically nested within Italy's borders, but from a political point of view, it may as well be Cameroon or Fiji, for all its pronouncements matter.

The problem is that the church exerts too much influence over some politicians, but those politicians are democratically elected and presumably they are elected by people who embrace their views. For all its fashion empires, and cutting-edge design businesses, Italy is a deeply conservative country at heart. For me, this is the biggest conundrum about Italy - that its people are so tolerant and open-minded on a one-to-one basis, but that they act so contrary to their nature at the ballot boxes. I chose to live here for the former, so I guess I have to accept the latter, at least while it endures.

[QUOTE=Marc]For me, this is the biggest conundrum about Italy - that its people are so tolerant and open-minded on a one-to-one basis, but that they act so contrary to their nature at the ballot boxes.[/QUOTE]

I have often read that the English are regarded as the biggest hypocrites in Europe because of a tendency to call a dirty broken down spade a very nice spade thank you. Now you are telling us that it is the ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs who are the biggest hypocrites. Perhaps we are all the same (and different) after all!

[QUOTE=Russ]My apologies for the German reference........ I should be the last person to stereotype people![/QUOTE]

Cheers, Russ - and sdoj. :) I accept the general views here in the UK and abroad on my fellow countrymen & women (and I understand where they come from) but sometimes stereotyping just bugs me a little, especially as many of my generation (I was born in '68) work hard making sure that history doesn't ever repeat itself! But then, on the other hand, I wouldn't want to start mentioning some German tourists... :o

The new pope's views are very old-fashioned & prejudiced and I would've hoped that someone got elected who had more modern views on things. Sadly that didn't happen & the church will continue as always... cover up for any wrongdoings and pretend to know it all.

Stephanie

[QUOTE=Iona]Cheers, Russ - and sdoj. :) But then, on the other hand, I wouldn't want to start mentioning some German tourists...

Stephanie[/QUOTE]

'But why, oh why, do the wrong people travel, when the right people stay at home?" -- Noel Coward

[quote=Aliena]John, you are naughty sometimes! And on a Sunday too!!

Does it really go [B]"a bit like this?" [/B]~ OR ~ does it really go [B]"a bit like this?"[/B]

[URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1897264,00.html"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1897264,00.html[/URL]

(Link provided by Paula.)

:) :)[/quote]

[COLOR=black]Umm, does put a slightly different view on the subject. So which reflects the truth?[/COLOR]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=adriatica]we have a strange system here...church and state...an independant little state with a lot of power stuck in the middle of the country which answers to no one.... i sometimes wonder what would happen if the british royal family and their status as heads of a religion made such pronouncements and laws if they would have carried on existing.....

so i am not lost for words just astounded at the latest well published and televised words from one of the vaticans think tanks.... basically as a sort of retort and answer to the paedophilia problem with priests in america....

it goes a bit like this....from now on no homosexual will be tolerated by the church either practicing or not ....to either enter into or to become a priest.... there are three reasons... 1 a homosexual cannnot control himself/.herself.... 2 it is an illness 3 they will become paedophiles....

.... it goes against all common sense and even statistics that make it quite clear that the vast overwhelming majority of paedophilia originates from the male hetrosexual population...

a priest in a discussion here...well he was a cardinal....suggest that the only natural state for children is to be brought up by a married mother and father and that the father will never look on his children as sexual objects.... where has he been living all these years.... ... and i do not know the last time i heard of any homosexual rape taking place ...but hetrosexual male rape of women.... so who cannot control themselves...

as a further addendum to the homosexual theory it is also regarded that a family is not a family where the parents are not married in a religous sense...

....now there is a law here in italy ... i think established in 1947 that everyone has the right to live in whatever way they wish without fear of persecution..... incuding gays and non married couples... and yet in the centre of the country we have an institution issuing powerful prejudicial decrees in which anyone with common sense would not only think of as laughable but horrifically dangerous at the same time.... in fact this cardinal sounded more to me like someone from the early 1940s explaining why the hebrew race and the gypsey popultaion needed to be removed from the planet..... and the danger ...there are those here and in the rest of the world that will believe it as true because of the doctrinal status of that state..... and god help us we have another german pronouncing on groups of people in medieval terms that i had hoped were long past....

the basis for the new law arrives from interpretations based on the words of st paul and clarifies that nothing has changed ...the same person has also written that women are second class ...uncleansed and not fit stand before god.... as equal to man...

if the european union has any power at all this state should be blockaded and sanctioned against until it recognises the rights of all humans of whatever creed ...sexual preference ....woman or man... to exist freely and without prejudice ... and these sanctions should remain in place until this decree is resinded and an apology made to the gay population of the world in regards its unfounded accusations regarding their predelence to paedophilia and uncontrollable sexual appetite[/QUOTE]

i am not sure if something has been lost between this statement being made
into english,but i was under the impression that it stated no practicing gays
were to be allowed into the priesthood, not gays!in the same way as no
practising hetrosexuals were also not allowed.
from this statement i can only assume there are one hell of alot of gay practising priests, which breaks the churches law on celibacy.

my apologies first for the off the cuff and hurtful...indeed i might even say stupid comment about the pope and his origins.... maybe i have lived here too long in that respect ...howevere no excuses and my apologies again it need not and should not have been said or even for that matter thought.... a cheap remark and i have been both publicly and privately rebuked... thankyou

as regards the article times on line.... in essence it quotes the document here in italy we hear the authors ...the hanger ons and the second string messengers.... all day and night ... and get a much cleare view of the interpretation.... not that watered down version....

the representative today on the seven channel discussion program reiterated that no homosexual could be trusted because they had this incurable illness that made them uncontrollably sexual active....

what they have published for world consumption and what they say here in interviews are two different things....

as to the arguement on paedophile males that choose to abuse male children... this is an oft mis taken precept of no value at all as regards the true fact... paedophiles come from in the main the hetrosexual population and will abuse children of whatever gender because they are child abusers not femal or male abusers.... this needs to be got straight... and i would have hoped that in this day and age it would not even have needed saying...which proves a point .... how the doctrine of an obscure medieval sate can negate common sense and obvious emperic statistics ... let alone socialogical data that homosexuality and child abuse ... even male child abuse have no link... because a hetrosexual makes love to a woman do we all then want to abuse female children... of course not... get this absurdity out of your minds...

Well done Adriatica, your apology does you proud !

You have used the word medieval twice in this thread if it were true then the Vatican would be trying to convince Spain and France to attack England and you would be in with the inquisitors right now. :)

..... and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Can't even be bothered to read this one...but I get the gist...

ciao tutti... see you in another life maybe..

... my italian english interpretation cannot be said to be perfect... or even nearly.... however ... the interview i mentioned was just one .... i have seen various cardinal mon.... s and priests reiterating the points.... homosexuals argueing... intelligent sane normal hardworking people experts in theology and physcology have tried to argue and to make these various representatives see the absurdity of what they are saying even in the theological sense ...let alone the moral or even criminal statistcal evidence ....which suggest in reallity and beyond doubt the most dangerous animal on earth is the male hetro... almost in tears that these prejudices can be expounded in these days despite evidence that they are contrary to all normal common held principles of rights and freedom today

so yes i could make a mistake once ... and even twice... but because i have to concentrate hard to fully understand spoken italian i rarely make as many mistakes as if i had been say listening to an english program.... so no the words are not open to is comprehension or even translation

i am sure ...but i cannot be bothered that if someone was to research they could call up the dialogues of these tv programs mainly on channel seven... and prove me wrong or right......

however the things have been said ...the text for the justification in a theological sense taken from preachings of a historical nature...hence my medieval reference... luckily say doctors do not use handbooks based on 15 th century medicine when we go to hospital... things are a bit more enlightened.... or are they

I think this thread has been remarkably civil considering the controversial nature of the topics. I introduced the inquisition theme as a feeble attempt at humour but now that Aliena has corrected me I feel rather sorry that I ever posted it. Mea culpa...

[quote=Aliena]Thanks John.. I didn't ask in order to prove right or wrong and remain convinced you knew that anyway.

In fact, I hoped there was the possibilitly of error, as it is incredulous in this day and age that these things can not only be said but also accepted by some as the correct way forward.

I do not doubt what you say, but wanted clarification for my own peace of mind only.. not for any other reason.. even if the comments in the previous posting to yours may suggest otherwise.

:) :)[/quote]

Ditto.

I do have resovations about the media in general as not only can they water down but can also hype up, which is why I wanted more facts too.