½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

[QUOTE=Susan P]Need some advice please.

I believe the new regulations state that any new installations of septic tanks must be the type that do not drain into the soil, but need emptying.

I've done some research in the UK and the minimum size is 18,000 litres which for the average family needs emptying every month :eek:

Does anyone have any information on the cost of installation and perhaps more importantly, the cost of emptying the thing.

The installation will be in the Puglia area.

Many thanks.[/QUOTE]

Our tank, in the UK, which we share with neighbours, is emptied twice a year at a cost of around £80 a time. No idea of size; it serves the needs of about 7/8 people.

Thanks for that Poetica. That's what I would have expected.

Just wondered if anyone had had a new tank fitted in Italy and an approximation of cost of tank, installation and emtying cycle?

[QUOTE=Susan P]I believe the new regulations state that any new installations of septic tanks must be the type that do not drain into the soil, but need emptying.[/QUOTE]

Strictly speaking, [I]all[/I] septic tank systems work by separating the solid waste from liquid and allowing the liquid to seep into the soil. If an independent waste system [I]doesn't[/I] drain liquid into the soil but instead consists of nothing more than a huge tank holding solids and liquids which must be pumped out very frequently, it's a cesspit, not a septic tank. (I think the ½ûÂþÌìÌà for cesspit might be [I]pozzo nero[/I], while a septic tank is called [I]una fossa biologica[/I].)

Septic tanks do need to be cleared of the solids that gradually accumulate, but this is normally something that only needs to be done every couple of years.

Anything is possible, but it would seem very odd to me if septic tanks have been outlawed and only cesspits are now legal. Particularly so since I understand that ½ûÂþÌìÌà [I]fosse[/I] these days are quite sophisticated with dedicated biological filtration systems to clean the waste liquid before it gets to the soakaway.

For what it's worth, a recently published book quotes a price of €5,000 to €10,000 for installing a new fossa system. It also makes the point that the costs of installation depend on very local factors (like the geology of the ground where holes need to be dug, how difficult it is to get the tanks into the area, etc). The book also suggests that by far the best way to deal with all this is to employ a specialist [I]fossa[/I] firm. Unless, that is, one enjoys dealing with bureaucracy, digging big holes, hauling massive tanks around and working with plumbing systems.

Al

[QUOTE=AllanMason]Strictly speaking, [I]all[/I] septic tank systems work by separating the solid waste from liquid and allowing the liquid to seep into the soil. If an independent waste system [I]doesn't[/I] drain liquid into the soil but instead consists of nothing more than a huge tank holding solids and liquids which must be pumped out very frequently, it's a cesspit, not a septic tank. (I think the ½ûÂþÌìÌà for cesspit might be [I]pozzo nero[/I], while a septic tank is called [I]una fossa biologica[/I].)

Septic tanks do need to be cleared of the solids that gradually accumulate, but this is normally something that only needs to be done every couple of years.

Anything is possible, but it would seem very odd to me if septic tanks have been outlawed and only cesspits are now legal. Particularly so since I understand that ½ûÂþÌìÌà [I]fosse[/I] these days are quite sophisticated with dedicated biological filtration systems to clean the waste liquid before it gets to the soakaway.

For what it's worth, a recently published book quotes a price of €5,000 to €10,000 for installing a new fossa system. It also makes the point that the costs of installation depend on very local factors (like the geology of the ground where holes need to be dug, how difficult it is to get the tanks into the area, etc). The book also suggests that by far the best way to deal with all this is to employ a specialist [I]fossa[/I] firm. Unless, that is, one enjoys dealing with bureaucracy, digging big holes, hauling massive tanks around and working with plumbing systems.

Al[/QUOTE]

Ha! Thanks for that Al :)

I've checked the plans and we're talking about a 'fossa IMHOF' which would indeed appear to be some kind of up to date 'draining' septic tank system.

Sorry to bring up such a delicate subject first thing on a Monday morning guys :o

We paid E800 for an imhof tank,(plastic) this price included burying it, but we had a digger on site at the time.
I made a french drain myself for the run off as our builders were clueless,(our soil is clay so a run off is essential otherwise it stays where it is and you get a garden pond you dont want!)
its really simple to do and cheap. we had the pebbles delivered from the same builders merchant as the tank so that cut costs as well.
We have been told to empty it ev year.
hope this helps

[QUOTE=herealready]We paid E800 for an imhof tank,(plastic) this price included burying it, but we had a digger on site at the time.
I made a french drain myself for the run off as our builders were clueless,(our soil is clay so a run off is essential otherwise it stays where it is and you get a garden pond you dont want!)
its really simple to do and cheap. we had the pebbles delivered from the same builders merchant as the tank so that cut costs as well.
We have been told to empty it ev year.
hope this helps[/QUOTE]

That's very helpful information thanks.

[QUOTE=Susan P]Need some advice please.

I believe the new regulations state that any new installations of septic tanks must be the type that do not drain into the soil, but need emptying.

I've done some research in the UK and the minimum size is 18,000 litres which for the average family needs emptying every month :eek:

Does anyone have any information on the cost of installation and perhaps more importantly, the cost of emptying the thing.

The installation will be in the Puglia area.

Many thanks.[/QUOTE]

We`re waiting to have ours done too. We`ve been quoted e800 for the whole job - but I think we`ve already got the hole as we`ve got a pozzo nero. Should be done this week - I`ll let you know how it goes.

[QUOTE=Susan P]Need some advice please.

I believe the new regulations state that any new installations of septic tanks must be the type that do not drain into the soil, but need emptying.

I've done some research in the UK and the minimum size is 18,000 litres which for the average family needs emptying every month :eek:

Does anyone have any information on the cost of installation and perhaps more importantly, the cost of emptying the thing.

The installation will be in the Puglia area.

Many thanks.[/QUOTE]
We had a VERY big one put in that was eight concrete rings one on another 3 metres diameter,with a forty metre dispersion tube buried in a deep gravel trench which takes the water off.Everyone on the site took the p-ss out of us saying are you building a sh-t house? ho ho ho.Howver we were proved right even with the very big use it gets as an activity with lots of people staying we have NEVER had to have it emptied in 6 years.The reason is also because it's big the enzymes have a chance to do their job breaking down the solids and converting into water.Whilst i know many people who were convinced to have a very small one installed where the volume of solid wastes was too much for the little enzymes consequently they are frequently having it emptied at around Euro 250,00 a time.Sh-t for thought,don't you think?Themain cost was the excavation of the pit,and the trench the placing of the rings and the tube all done by the excavator company who laid the pipes around the entire building.Make sure you get enough inspection manholes left as this is NOT a mains sewer you must be VERY CAREFUL what you put down the toilet on no account should tampons, cellulose paper handkerchiefs,or anything else apart from a MINIMAL amount of toilet paper (important to use bidets also for this reson)go down as you could end up with blocked pipes (back to excavators again)avoid solid/powder washing machine detergent,or for dish washers use liqid detergents in your machines,avoid as much chemical additives as possible as they can kill your enzymes.Once a year just as a precaution i hand clean all the inspection holes with a shovel/wheelbarrow and put the hose down the tubing to ensure there are no blockages.Sorry about all these squallid details but it really is an important subject and many who have never come across the foss biologica can get into trouble with these things.Hope this helps.

[QUOTE=Sebastiano]...as this is NOT a mains sewer you must be VERY CAREFUL what you put down the toilet on no account should tampons, cellulose paper handkerchiefs, or anything else apart from a MINIMAL amount of toilet paper .[/QUOTE]

Somebody did some research of loo roll 'dispersal/disintegration times [sad but true]
Don't use fancy loo rolls - the 'titchy and thin' ½ûÂþÌìÌà rolls disintegrate very quickly [less than 5 mins] - so don't block pipes. - Quilted loo roll takes 15 -30 mins and 'moist wipes' about a day and things like nappy liners more than 15 days.

Oh the joys of such discussions so early in the morning!

Thanks The Smiths,

How big is your new tank? Be interested to know how the installation goes. Also, as you are in Puglia, which company you are using? You can send me a PM if you like.

Saluti, Sue

[QUOTE=Sebastiano]We had a VERY big one put in that was eight concrete rings one on another 3 metres diameter,with a forty metre dispersion tube buried in a deep gravel trench which takes the water off.Everyone on the site took the p-ss out of us saying are you building a sh-t house? ho ho ho.Howver we were proved right even with the very big use it gets as an activity with lots of people staying we have NEVER had to have it emptied in 6 years.The reason is also because it's big the enzymes have a chance to do their job breaking down the solids and converting into water.Whilst i know many people who were convinced to have a very small one installed where the volume of solid wastes was too much for the little enzymes consequently they are frequently having it emptied at around Euro 250,00 a time.Sh-t for thought,don't you think?Themain cost was the excavation of the pit,and the trench the placing of the rings and the tube all done by the excavator company who laid the pipes around the entire building.Make sure you get enough inspection manholes left as this is NOT a mains sewer you must be VERY CAREFUL what you put down the toilet on no account should tampons, cellulose paper handkerchiefs,or anything else apart from a MINIMAL amount of toilet paper (important to use bidets also for this reson)go down as you could end up with blocked pipes (back to excavators again)avoid solid/powder washing machine detergent,or for dish washers use liqid detergents in your machines,avoid as much chemical additives as possible as they can kill your enzymes.Once a year just as a precaution i hand clean all the inspection holes with a shovel/wheelbarrow and put the hose down the tubing to ensure there are no blockages.Sorry about all these squallid details but it really is an important subject and many who have never come across the foss biologica can get into trouble with these things.Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]

Many thanks for your very imformative post Sebastiano, and no I'm not kidding. You're right when you say that very few 'townies' understand the in's and out's (no pun intended) of a fossa biologica.

Your system does indeed sound like the sxxt house to end all sxxt houses :cool: We too will have a lot of people staying from time to time (big family) and the idea of not having to empty it for up to 6 years sounds very good to me.

From the sound of it, this type of installation will cost serious money but, at 250 euros a throw to empty the thing, would probably be worth the extra in the long run.

Would it be possible for you to give me an idea of the costs involved? You can send me a PM if you feel more comfortable with that.

[QUOTE=alan haynes]Somebody did some research of loo roll 'dispersal/disintegration times [sad but true]
Don't use fancy loo rolls - the 'titchy and thin' ½ûÂþÌìÌà rolls disintegrate very quickly [less than 5 mins] - so don't block pipes. - Quilted loo roll takes 15 -30 mins and 'moist wipes' about a day and things like nappy liners more than 15 days.

Oh the joys of such discussions so early in the morning![/QUOTE]

I can see that I'm going to have to put up one of those framed lists of 'do's and don'ts' that you used to see in Spanish toilets years ago. Oh no :eek: Does that mean I'll also have to have the obligatory waste paper basket next to the loo.

[QUOTE=Susan P]I can see that I'm going to have to put up one of those framed lists of 'do's and don'ts' that you used to see in Spanish toilets years ago. Oh no :eek: Does that mean I'll also have to have the obligatory waste paper basket next to the loo.[/QUOTE]
yes,like the good old Spanish toilets in the seventies we have notices,dispensers for tampon bags (3 languages) and yes the old waste bin with "dark" liner next to loos..i'll try to dig out the info on the costs but it may prove1. a bit out of date as prices go 2. we had the whole system of piping round the houses done contemporaneously so it may prove complicated to seperate just the costs of the fossa biologica and dispersion tube.If you're already over without the geometra call a friendly local excavation company to come and advise you + written preventivo for excavations,tube laying, and procuring the concrete fossa itself (that was the smaller part of thecosts anyway, whilst excavation is traditionally quite expensive but unavoidable.good luck toiletting...

LOL, I have a simple rule, put nothing down that doesn't start in "P" pee, poo and paper... (Ahhhh, don't allow visitors who have poodles), BUT, why does everyone suddenly decide that they just HAVE TO use 18 sheets of paper ???? :D :D :eek:

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]LOL, I have a simple rule, put nothing down that doesn't start in "P" pee, poo and paper... (Ahhhh, don't allow visitors who have poodles), BUT, why does everyone suddenly decide that they just HAVE TO use 18 sheets of paper ???? :D :D :eek:[/QUOTE]

George i'm really pleased that you agree...that you're in the toilet with us..do you think we could make money out of courses on what to do with bidets...
my mother's friend puts flowers in the bidet or washes her feet?!

[QUOTE=Sebastiano]George i'm really pleased that you agree...that you're in the toilet with us..do you think we could make money out of courses on what to do with bidets...
my mother's friend puts flowers in the bidet or washes her feet?![/QUOTE]

NOW, Seb, I cannot imagine a friend of YOUR mother being anything other than perfectly at home with her Bidet :) I KNOW we could make money out of courses in Bidet use, and general "Living ½ûÂþÌìÌÃ" courses, heck, you gave me some great advice regarding window sizes, several years ago LOL, anyway, just thought about "Potted Palms" too, so I might need to make the instructions clearer... Remind me to tell you the story of Pietro's Fosse cleaning tool one day.;)

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]We have a septic tank in the Uk and I recommend recycled loo paper as it breaks down much more quickly.

Sainsbury's is v good.Anyone able to buy this in Italy or do we need to take it out with us?

Our house has an old septic tank which I suspect is going to be dodgy and need replacing so this is a very useful post.thanks

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

We have a pozzo nero - the literal translation from ½ûÂþÌìÌà is 'black well', but probably 'black hole' is a better description. It was put in more than 30 years ago and never emptied: the solids have accummulated and the liquids soak away down the hill. Apparently, this is now illegal, and we cannot find someone to put it right. Any advice welcome.

[QUOTE=mikehunter]We have a pozzo nero - the literal translation from ½ûÂþÌìÌà is 'black well', but probably 'black hole' is a better description. It was put in more than 30 years ago and never emptied: the solids have accummulated and the liquids soak away down the hill. Apparently, this is now illegal, and we cannot find someone to put it right. Any advice welcome.[/QUOTE]
When you say you can't find anyone to put it right, what exactly do you mean?

Are you looking for someone to just clear the solids from your cesspit? Or are you wanting someone to install a new system? If the latter, what reasons have people given for refusing the job?

In either case, I doubt if I'll be able to make any suggestions to help you sort out the problem, but the additional info might help others to do so.

For the little it's worth, the place I'm buying has a "magic" [I]pozzo nero[/I] that never needs emptying, so one of the jobs on my list is installing a proper [I]fossa[/I]. I think that shouldn't be too much of a hassle since I'll have the room to just leave the existing tank of muck where it is and install a new tank and dispersal field. Is a lack of space your problem?

Al

[QUOTE=manopello][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]We have a septic tank in the Uk and I recommend recycled loo paper as it breaks down much more quickly.

Sainsbury's is v good.Anyone able to buy this in Italy or do we need to take it out with us?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Surprising though it may seem to some - as millions of ½ûÂþÌìÌÃs have houses with fosses, all supermarkets sell suitable loo paper.

The only problem is that the best types for fosses [quickest breakdown time] are somewhat insubstantial - which might explain why Georges friends use 18 sheets when they 'go' [I've got it down to 12!]

[QUOTE=Susan P]Need some advice please.

I believe the new regulations state that any new installations of septic tanks must be the type that do not drain into the soil, but need emptying.

I've done some research in the UK and the minimum size is 18,000 litres which for the average family needs emptying every month :eek:

Does anyone have any information on the cost of installation and perhaps more importantly, the cost of emptying the thing.

The installation will be in the Puglia area.

Many thanks.[/QUOTE]

HELLO,we recently had not the tank emptied but we had all the manhole inspection holes cleaned out.This cost the same as emptying the tank eURO 240.This was because given the relatively small bore of the waste tubing 200mm there could always be a risk of these getting blocked ( which is worse than your pit getting full).I've also heard some horror stories recently about these new plastic tanks they have started installing (this may not apply to Puglia) but here in the marche where there is frequent land movement a heard recently of the septic tank being crushed and buckling underground which led to the waste coming out in the ground and causing problems.
As far as costs go you should consider around a days work for excavations (these prices vary in different areas) the concrete rings or plastic tankto be installed and you may have to have tubing to take the waste to the pit so it's not easy togive an estimate for all these things.By the way we've had the pit emptied once in six years.